True you have to work to become good but just because doesn't make you good. I have played soccer with people who have played at least as long as me and twice as much but are still sub-par to average players. You have to have some natural talent.

You can't really compare the Magical power with cycling or soccer but lets say "talent" and "magic" are the same. Some people are just born better than others but it doesn't matter how good you are if you don't practice you will ultimately fail.

In cannon however you never see anyone become magically exhausted or be extra tired because they used a lot of magic that day, it just doesn't happen. I don't really think JKR thought about magic and power when she was writing the books because she just assumed magic is magic, wizards have it muggles don't and not the "properties" of magic and why some people have it and others don't.

In cannon it's also said that Neville was a near squib (Well someone says that) but it's also portrayed that he doesn't do as well in classes as other students. But during the DA he works harder and becomes one of the better students and does decently on his OWLS.

The whole "better" magic seems the same as having a stronger core to me because that means that it still resides within you but some peoples magic just does a better job than others. Whats the difference between having "Better" magic and the same? How can you have better magic if it's unlimited and all wizards can access the same amount.

Maybe some wizards can just access more magic than others or channel it better so when they cast a spell it happens as they want it (within reason) but when someone who is not as good at channeling tries it may not happen as they hoped so they have to work harder to get the desired result, as in practicing there spells more.

The whole magical power on the boat thing. How would the boat be able to tell who's practiced their magic more. It's obvious that Dumbledore has more magic or "power" than Harry.

On a completely off topic note, when Dumbledore says it won't register Harry because he's underage, it sounds to me like JKR is planning on Harry having a "magical maturation" on his 17 birthday to me if his power won't register compared to Dumbledores

On a back on topic note my theory is you get more power as you age but some people accumalate magic quicker or accumalate more. If that makes any sense.

 

That is referenced to the fact that Harry is not yet of 'age' and he 'doesn't count' as a wizard...yet.

 

Right after his first good Patronus.

 

Oh, good spot DLR, but is that magic or from continualy feeling the effect of the dementors. Even though it's just a boggart it still simulates the effects because that's his greatest fear.

 

Err, just before that every time he casts the spell he felt a little more tired. This was his first good one. I'd say it's the magic.

 

Confirmed.

Cancelled.

Sorry Darius, but this quote clearly defines magical exhaustion (as in being tired, not running out of magic... do your muscles disappear when you've been running for two hours and no longer feel you can move? Negative. You can still walk, you just can't continue running.). Magic has no source, it has no core, it has no definate limitations.

And when I say no definate limitations, remember that even though (just for fun lets say) I can lift a 250lb weight, it doesn't mean that I can lift a thousand pound one, nor can I lift a 250 lb weight all day, it's just impossible. Sure I can train to lift this weight more and more and more, and therein lies the dedication - everyone has roughly the same potential, some people just will never use it.

I never said anything disproving natural talent, if you read through my prior post, you will see that I said Albus Dumbledore appears to have a natural dispositon towards magic. It's the same thing.

As for the Harry's-Boat-Power-Not-Registering dilemma, it has been stated that due to Voldemort's arrogance, he assumed any Wizard who would make an attempt at his Horcrux would be an adult wizard, and set the 'power' restriction accordingly. An interesting analogy - Arnold Schwarzenegger at his prime, strong and huge. And one of those insane Monks who can pull 18-wheelers with their dicks, stand on a finger, and move faster than your eye can see. The boat is only big enough to old Arnold's muscles, but because the Monk can slip in between, the boat will let him go as well - his muscles don't register. (Did that make sense?)

 

If you pay attention in PoA, they do somewhat talk about power. Not straight out, but it does give examples. Such as the Patronus, but also when he saves Buckbeak.

Also, in GoF, Accio I would say doesn't necessarily take a lot of power. Harry is strong, but he can't seem to do it. Then he concentrates hard and it works perfectly.This shows that spells don't always take power, but concentration.

Oh, in PS, the reason Wingardium was hard, not power, technique though.

For a good spell, technique, concentration, and pronunciation. My examples are all charms, but you could probably find more.

 

Do all wizards have the same potential? I really don't think they do. Some of you have made analogies comparing talents or skills to magical power. This delves in to the whole "nature vs. nurture" argument. What if some wizards are genetically predisposed to be powerful, and others are predisposed to weak?

I'm not saying that a wizard's genes absolutely determine their power levels, because I agree that if you work hard you will get stronger. However, I am saying that genes are a factor in a wizard's power level.

(edit: grammar)

 

But what about Riddle? Would you say his immediate ancestors were strong? They were pretty fucked up. Yet, he goes on to be one of the strongest Dark Lords.

 

It made sense but I don't neccesarily think it's right as to the whole boat thing. I do agree with the rest of your post though.

There's no core or anything but some people can just channel more magic than other, like stamina. Which is pretty much the same as a core just a better explanation.

This leads to the question though that if you work and practice will you be able to channel more magic? I don't think magic works like a muscle. I think certain people are born with the more "magical stamina" than others.

 

Hybridism vs pureline

Riddle is a good example for term hybrid used in genetic. Gaunt line was geneticly "pure" or beter inbred. They were carieres for strong dominant magical genes but they also caried recesive alels for genetics diseases in pure state. These genes made them weak fysicly, mentaly and even magicly (you have to be probably in good mental and fysical health to be magicly strong). When Merope had child with muggle, the recesive genes were silenced by healthy dominand alells but gene for magical strenght is dominant and so was Riddle rerlatively healthy and magicly strong.

 

You don’t think that it’s pathetic that a wizard can’t go a few hours casting spells before he’s no longer a wizard until he has recovered? I do. Somewhere in this thread someone says that they think that wizards should get tired to stop them being able to cast spells like the AK continuously for 2 minutes. You don’t think that it’s pathetic that only after 2 minutes a wizard will begin to tire?

And if you do think that a wizard should tire to prevent him being able to overuse spell like the AK, then why doesn’t a wizard tire from using spells like a levitation charm for an extended period of time? After all, if magic were quantifiable, it would take far less power to kill someone with an Avada Kedavra than to levitate an object with Wingardium Leviosa, as killing someone is quite easy, but getting an object to levitate and defy gravity is impossible by the laws of physics.

But if magic were like a muscle, then it would also loose its strength after a period of not being used. Clearly this is not the case, as after 13 years in Azkaban, Sirius is just as feared as when he first went in.

See above – don’t you think it’s pathetic for a wizard to not be able to cast a spell for 2 minutes?

A cunning fallacy you’ve used there, but it doesn’t work on me I’m afraid. The Patronus sections of POA do not clearly define magical exhaustion as you state – the effects could indeed be down to the Dementor. It has been said that every time he tries the spell he gets more exhausted, but it could be also said that every time he is exposed to the Dementor he is more exhausted.

Indeed, if Harry was magically exhausted, then why is he able to get up and do the spell again moments later?

As for your muscle theory, again you have been misleading in your aguement.

Your muscles do not disappear when you have been running for two hours, but magic is not comparable to the muscle, even with your view of magic. In your view of magic, the ATP which powers the muscle is equivalent to magic, and the muscle moving is the equivalent to the spell – the effect of the magic or ATP. And when you’ve been running for 2 hours, your ATP levels will drop (they won’t disappear completely, but that’s a failing of the allegory). So in your view of magic, magic will disappear when exhausted, making them no different to a Muggle, which is one of my main objections.

 

I agree with you on this part, magic cannot be scientifically quantifiable and quite obviously does not conform to any laws of physics, that is the very basis of the idea of magic.

Perhaps the fear is justified, that if after 13 years of Azkaban Sirius was still able to break out, something that had never been done before - he MUST have been incredibly powerful initially.

Again, you're assuming that magical exhaustion is equivalent to 'losing one's powers', a concept which is quite incomprehensible. As I've said before, after running for two hours solid, you may find yourself unable to run for a time, though you still walk. Maybe my analogy was wrong, Magic is not a muscle. Magic is.

Therefore magic cannot disappear, that would be contrary to the fact of being a Wizard. As JKR has previously stated, you either are (a Wizard/Witch) or you aren't. Magic is not channeled, magic is not pooled, magic is not stored, magic simply is. It is a part of a wizard's life as essential as breathing is to us, though sometimes we do get short of breath, and others we dive to the bottom of the ocean.

The problem most of you have with this notion is your fantasy of magic, you revere it as something which can be held on to, something which must have substance and mass. The only thing I can say to you is, Magic is not a thing. Magic is.

 

If magical exhaustion means that one "cannot run, but simply walk", then one is not able to access your full power. If that power is not available to you, then it is lost. Therefore, if you are magically exhausted, then you have lost your powers, if only temporarily.

As for magic not having a mass - thats exactly what I'm saying. Magic cannot be quantifiable. If something cannot be quantified, then it is impossible to have more or less of it as it has no substance or quantity. If it is impossible to have more or less of magic therefore it is impossible to get exhausted: if something is unquantifiable then it is infinite.

However, if magic has these qualities, then we must explain how some people are more powerful than others. Thats where my idea of differences in strength not being caused by amounts of power, or size of magical reserves or anything like that, but by the quality of power possesed comes into play.

 

Avada Kevadra rips the soul from the body unless I'm mistaken so that would probably be a little harder than floating some one. It doesn't defy physics anymore than a plane or Kobe Bryant jumping 5 feet high.

It's ridiculous too assume you could just stand there and cast as many spells as you want as long as you want. Maybe you don't get magically exhausted but perhaps phsyically exhausted if your "channeling" magic through your body a raw source like that could be very tiring to the muscles.

 

You have a very fanon view of magic...it never says anywhere in canon that AK rips the soul from the body...so yes, you are mistaken.

Some one may be able to jump 5 feet high, but they come back down again stright away. Wingardium Leviosa floats something indefinatly without the use of aerofoils like a plance, or anything other than magic.

This requires the breaking of several laws of physics, and so presumably would take up more magical energy (were if quantifiable) than killing someone, which I could do just by hitting you hard enough in the right place with my fist.

Also, there is no canon evidence that magic is channeled through anything, and even if there were, no evidence that this would tire the body, so that arguement doesn't work either.

I don't see why it's ridiculous for a wizard to be able to cast spells indefinatly: they're wizards, they're supposed to be able to do magic.

 

If you're too tired run are your legs missing? No, you still CAN run, it just wont leave you feeling too well, so you don't. Let's try to abolish the term 'Magical Exhaustion' and replace it with 'Magical Fatigue'.

At least we can agree on something (somewhat). Because magic is part of th e wizard, and not a seperate entity which is pooled and channeled, it is subject to the Wizard's physical, mental, and emotional condition as we have seen (Tonks losing her metamorphic abilities, Dementors draining a Wizards ability to use magic - through the emotional despair and terror they bring). Therefore while magic may be infinite (A reason for the Finite Incantatem, and other Counter-Curses), it cannot be used as such. Eventually a Wizard will tire of waving his wand (or hand, YES WANDLESS MAGIC IS CANON - See POA pg 65) and (theoretically) this will affect his casting.

And again you're idealising magic, Magic is. Magic is infinite. Magic does not come in different qualities, as i've said before (a quote from JKR) "you either have magic, or you do not," The most powerful wizards and witches are the most studious, and the most dedicated (as i've previously stated) to practising their magic. Just as any of us would be unable to hold their breath as long as a professional diver can, which is not to say that we are totally unable, we just lack the conviction to train ourselves so.

 

So we pretty much agree on what magic is, we just disagree on whether a wizard can get exhausted/fatigued using it?

Well, as I said before, when running, you legs don't disapear, but the energy that is used to move the legs does.

So using your comparison, your saying magic is like the muscles in the legs that move you? Then what is the energy that drives the magic?

 

And you have a cannon view of magic, if so you have blinders on because you have next to nothing to go on.

All a floating spell would require is enough upward momentum. I think shooting a spell that can kill someone would require more, whether or not someone can kill someone else by hitting them means nothing. There are several ways to do most anytihng and some require more energy than others.

I'm pretty sure it says somewhere (not in the books) that AK affects the soul. But I don't go on lexicon or read JKR interviews so I could be mistaken and you could be entirely right. It's a possibility that I've read to much fanfiction and I mix it together with fact.

I was thinking along the same lines as that because some peoples view on magic sounds like making sometihng from nothing. Thats why the core makes sense because it's like your crafting something out of a renewable resource.

THe whole Use it and then your nothing but a muggle thing. Wizards are just muggles with the ability to use magic. It's a big thing but there wizards, not gods, they need to have limits or you end up like Ruskbytes OOTP.

 

Yes, we do agree on what magic is. I think we're misunderstanding each other here (and i've just realised what i've been trying to say all along). Magic is not the muscles in your leg that push your body forward, Magic is the momentum - the movement of running - and the muscles are the physical body of the wizard; after running for a long time, as you've said, the energy disappears. Do you understand what i'm trying to say? The potential and ability to move is still present, but the legs protest.