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WIP A Practical Guide to Evil by Erraticerrata - T - Original Fantasy

Discussion in 'Original Fiction' started by DvorakQ, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. Lamora

    Lamora Definitely Not Batman ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I hate to leap in and be the angel's advocate again...but this chapter wasn't really filler. There are a couple of important things buried in the filler:

    This is anything but filler. I know for a fact I'm not the only one who remembers the whole crowns of seven mortal rulers and one deal Cat has going with Larat (to unknown end). Well, ding ding ding - we just found at least 4, assuming that none of Cat's other victories count for some of the other crowns (Amadis being her captive, Akua's own crown, some aspect of Pilgrim being unofficial royalty) (let alone her own which counts as at least one, perhaps the one). It's a spoken deal, for one, and for two, it's a deal between two fae.

    The only other references to 'seven and one' we have is King Jehan the Wise of Callow, who hung that many the last time Procer invaded Callow, and the Lone Swordsman in the White Knight section of the Fourfold Path (ch 65). At the very least, the Princess of High Noon recognizes the pattern, and is notably afraid when absolutely fucking nothing else has managed anything close.

    Whether 'seven and one' is some sort of ur-pattern (like the one used to steal the sun) that Jehan and the Swordsman invoked, or conversely, it is a mortal pattern that would empower Larat is up for debate. I lean towards the former, if only because the fae know about it and use it.

    My personal suspicion is that it is an ur-pattern specifically about righteous defenders turning back an invasion, which Jehan and the Swordsman found and used - something that it would make sense for Winter to know, given their strongest role being turning occupation into a thing of destruction. A caveat of this, I think, would be Larat becoming the new King - as you would only lay such an offering at the feet of the invaded country's ruler. Perhaps the 'and one' could only be the previous ruler's - seven invaders crowns and then the kingdom's. This has very poor implications for Cat, considering that there's only a few ways I can see that going:

    -Cat being forced to abdicate and crown Larat. This is the best possible outcome, which should scare anyone shitless. Yikes.

    -Cat being forced to be Larat's queen. It has symmetry to Cat's own solution for Arcadia, which is very not good. A big yikes.

    -Larat becoming king and taking Akua as his queen. We already have her weaving herself into Winter and constantly disguising herself as a fae. A fae becoming part of Creation and a mortal becoming part of fae. Akua being let out constantly being said to be a bad decision and yet done anyway. The cyclical-ness is all there. The biggest and most large of yikes.

    More and more Cat is setting herself to be literally royally fucked. But we'll see how it goes.

    That's the most important thing in the chapter, I think. The rest is secondary, but worth following up one:

    Jehan is a very pertinent individual for where the story is right now, both in terms of Cat's moral dilemma and Procer's invasion. Here's a few quotes:

    Cat is very badly trying to find out where the line is crossed where she goes from becoming a benefit to her Kingdom to a liability. To do that, she is making a lot of compromises. Compare and contrast the White Knight, who is pretty on message for King Jehan.

    I don't think it means anything, but it's an interesting contrast, I think.
     
  2. Stealthy

    Stealthy Groundskeeper

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    I'll hitch on to that theory. Cat's crown being the "and one", with the seven being filled out from the Principate (there's a Prince's Graveyard battle coming up, after all. Probably the one with the Dead King), fits.

    I don't think the "and one" has to be the ruler's own - Lone Swordsman sure didn't have a crown in the Fourfold Crossing, and doesn't sound like Jehan was laying crowns at anybody's feet - it just has to have more narrative weight and Cat's crown would satisfy that criteria and be pretty in character. The other candidates for "and one" are limited. In Procer there's Hasenbach's, and perhaps Papenheim's. Hasenbach is First Prince, and Papenheim's social standing may be enough as leader of the invading armies. She's trying to not kill those two, though. The Tyrant's could count if he made himself directly opposed to Catherine, but that doesn't look likely. He's sworn eternal friendship to her and his ambitions are elsewhere. Still looking forward to that crazy bastard making his move. Only other with narrative weight is Malicia, but I can't remember if she actually has a crown or not. She's a Book 5 fight anyhow, and this sounds like a Book 4 problem (if one set off at the end leading into Book 5).

    Oh, and there's the Dead King, but like hell is Cat pulling that off.
     
  3. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    I think that's reaching pretty far, because--just to start with--it's the 'crowns of seven mortal rulers and one' and those guys sure as fuck ain't mortal.

    More importantly, is, after making such a huge deal about the oath she swore to Larat and the consequences of it, it turns out that she can just take the crowns of some dead people that some other guy killed and who aren't doing anything...well, look--I've frequently been one of this stories biggest critics and one of my biggest complaints is the fact that the last five or so climaxes, if not more, have been extremely anticlimactic, but good fuck, I've never thought this story was that bad and I dearly hope it isn't. Like, what your proposing is that Cat settles half her debt with some random fucking nobodies that have no baring on anything and who've already been beaten. If that works, why not just fucking dig up a bunch of dead Callowan nobles and trade in their crowns; they're just as applicable and it's the only worse way I can think of, short of Calernia developing a Burger King chain and trading in the paper hats.

    I would rage so hard if that were the case and I think I'd be pretty damn justified in doing so. 'All he asked for was seven mortal crowns--he didn't say they had to be from living mortals, that I had to kill them, or that there had to be any difficulty involved in the process, lawl!'

    No, fuck that. Get out of here with that weak-ass shit.

    I'm still thinking it'll be the Free Cities, just because conflict there is inevitable but Cat has yet to have any real kind of driving motivation towards conflict with them; it'd add narrative weight to the whole mess.
     
  4. Stealthy

    Stealthy Groundskeeper

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    While there being 7 Free Cities and a Hierarch fits a Seven and One pattern perfectly (and I'd be convinced it did in the past if Anaxares wasn't the second ever Hierarch), it just doesn't fit this one. A lack of crowns for Cat to claim (Stygia, Bellerophon, and possibly Atalante lack a supreme ruler who would qualify), and again there's no direct opposition at play. There is no story between Cat and the Free Cities, nor does there seem to be one in the works.
     
  5. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    I complain when I see something I think is done wrong, but I give credit when I see something done right, too, and this chapter is fantastic. I loved the talk with the Dead King and Akua's an A+ storyteller, somehow managing to be the most interesting and fun to watch character among the Woe, who've kind of hit the doldrums as a group in terms of character progression. The talk with the Dead King was excellent and I love that, all his plans aside, he's just talking to the new girl in the immortals club. If they betray one another, in his eyes, it's but a passing thing and a natural course--he doesn't care about the current conflict that much at all, in the end, because really, it comes and it goes.

    There's talk of the Choirs, and apparently Mercy should be looked out for, and they're at once a vast, seemingly unstoppable thing, but also bound--and there's heavy implication that Kairos has pulled the wool over everyone's eyes yet again. Shoutout to him, by the way--even the Dead King likes him.

    Also, shoutout to the Bard for being awesome, even by introduction. She's laying low at the moment after Kairos' trick, but we hear some more about her and she's still busy. Turns out, the Name changes; she's not always the Wandering Bard, but she plays the same Roles. Thing is, even the Dead King doesn't know what she's up to and he says she 'she ruined me with a smile on her lips.'

    He also drops an important hint--'Know her to be your foe, and that in this game of ours there is nothing more dangerous than allowing the others to grasp your heart’s desire.' That might be why Kairos is so terrifying, really, because he gets that from anyone he looks at.

    Then there's a whole discussion done in the background as if almost unimportant, which, really, isn't it in context? But then we get a Sahelian bedtime story and Akua's always at her best when she's monologing. She starts with a statement that really sells who she is:

    And she expounds upon it:

    That's what Gods are to Praes, or at least to Akua--if it betters her, she'd betray the gods. Even Cat has to acknowledge that beneath the insanity, that's kinda badass, and she admits that, yeah, Akua totally faced absurd odds at the end of Book 3. Akua tells a horrific story of her childhood to answer why, but it really boils down to what we heard long, long ago--the greatest sin for a villain is to hesitate. And 'If you are to cut the world, it is best to have a steady hand.'

    Your stories are boss, Akua; can we follow you for awhile? Or could you narrate everything that happens?
     
  6. mmm

    mmm First Year

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    The holy betrayal line is doubly appropriate: not only does it refer to Akua potentially betraying Cat (her current patron) but also to Liesse Accords, which aim to curtail the game between the Gods.

    Guide's been steadily shifting towards tackling the immortality and the godhood angle and honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Larat - all fae, in fact - seem to seriously look down on mortals, to the point where I think there must be more to being immortal than just agelessness. Maybe some sort of shift in perspective? A kind of glimpse of the machinery that makes the world? We've even had the Dead King call it the apotheosis so I think there's more to it.

    In that sense, I think this is the final step in the game. The stakes are raised yet again as we slowly move away from international war into a theological and divine conflict. This is great stuff as it plays into the world-building very well - the impression that there's always something underneath. At the same time, I'm quite anxious about this becoming a story about Cat's ascension to godhood. There's been a lot of hints pointing in that direction but I think the narrative would be better served keeping the protagonist in a role where she can play the Gods to her advantage rather than elevating her to that position.
     
  7. katreus

    katreus First Year

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    She doesn't need to ascend to godhood though. Assuming the Dead King is correct, she's already a god. Apotheosis by accident.
     
  8. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    So a conflict between Cat and Malicia has been long in the coming, but the way it's happening now makes it seem a tad bit...unfeasible? Like, the whole reason Cat and her crew are here right now is because we're pretending soldiers matter the Army of Callow has basically been wrecked, with it maybe being able to fight one more battle at most before falling apart, and they're so desperate to alleviate the burden that they're resorting to contacting the Dead King. The thing is, what applies to the Crusade applies to Praes; five Legions and some change got wrecked, but something like seven to ten are still in the Wasteland, right? Cat has the great advantage of not needing to actually walk her army physically through the death trap that is Praes, but she'd still need to lay siege to the cities, and they are themselves death traps. Even assuming she 'just' goes for Ater and attacks a city of five hundred thousand people, problems will occur and while Callow has Masego, the rest of it's mage forces probably don't compare to Praes. I can't imagine Malicia hasn't seen a backstab like that coming from the moment she decided on this plan, either, and she knows how Cat's powers work and helped arrange for half of the current ones besides. Right now, Cat's replacement plan for 'We can't deal with this major threat' seems to be 'Let's try dealing with even more threats anyway!' Their best shot, really, would be to attack Malicia directly, and counter all her soft power with their hard power, but I don't believe for a moment Malicia walked into this fight not expecting that.

    To make matters worse, any hope of an alliance between Callow and Procer just went up in flames as the varied factions in the West are starting to slip from Cordelia's control. I'm kind of eh on that subject, mostly because Procer keeps making huge mistakes for reasons we only seem to hear about after the fact and I'm kind of bored of it--and, of course, I have my complaints about their utter failure to accomplish anything thus far. In this case, at least, it causes problems for Cat, because she can't allow Procer's army in to attack Praes because shit's gone down politically, and Callowans reacted like Callowans usually do, except when they don't to Praes for some reason. Every Hero with the Crusade has been declared a villain by all the voices currently able to talk in Callow and churches have been burnt down. Any hope of peace there is a pipe dream.

    Adding to the excitement, the Dead King made his counter offer, and it basically started with him laughing in Cat's face for thinking he'd do what she wanted and nothing else. He wants a third of Procer at least, a public declaration of alliance that would send Callow into open rebellion, and the claiming of two parts of Procer to make any negotiation with them somehow even more impossible--because Cat walked in to ask him to take a bite out of her enemies, and he laughed and went 'Sure; if you take a bite out of mine.' To say nothing of, again, Callow's army being wrecked already or the narrative dangers. Letting Malicia have her way might seem like a good option for about a second, except Malicia's not gonna care if the Dead King slaughters millions, and shit like that is going to have consequences, particularly if attempts to ward off the Dead King fail.

    This is one of those situations where I don't see any logical way out and not in a good 'But how will the hero survive this one!?' way and more in a 'Um, the hero shouldn't survive this one' way.
     
  9. Imraefi

    Imraefi Third Year

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    Which means, of course, there will be an ass pull of biblical proportions somewhere down the line.
     
  10. mmm

    mmm First Year

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    The impression I got was that Malicia was physically in Keter, which is why the eastern front is going so poorly for the Empire and (partially) why Nok burned down.

    If so, then after Cat kills Malicia and becomes Dread Empress, repelling the eastern bit of the crusade and killing the nobles claiming the Name would probably be enough to make the Empire fall in line. The Matrons already tried to make her a deal and I imagine Praesi nobles can smell the blood in the water too though we've no idea how the Praesi court looks at the moment. Probably the biggest short term threats would be Black and Warlack, both who are deep in the enemy territory and can't get back so... happy days?

    I mean, she's been declared as an Antichrist and her country essentially gave the finger to the faith. There's no hope for peace so it's not like becoming the Dread Empress would change her political situation on the international stage - she'd just get 5-10 legions out of it. Strictly for the purpose of beating the crusade, this would be a pretty good deal as it would increase her available resources and let her make her own deal with the Dead King.

    If Malicia isn't currently in Keter then yeah, this is a really dumb plan. Like, you could maybe get a shot by trying to make a diplomatic visit but that's a long shot. Besides the cities, assaulting the Tower itself would be super difficult.
     
  11. Koalas

    Koalas First Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Chances of Malicia not meat puppeting it up is like 0.1%. My guess is the Observatory reveal and some form of death via Scrying.
     
  12. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    Yeah, like, I'm baffled by the idea that Cat was willing to leave Callow unsupervised for weeks/months during a war. Leaving Praes alone of that long, especially considering Malicia's much slower means of travel, is absurd; her reign probably wouldn't last long enough for her to do anything.

    The idea of managing a death vis scrying, particularly in anything like a timely manner, seems equally absurd, because if there was one place I'd expect to be layered to fuck and back with protections against that, it'd be the Tower, especially with Wakesa being one of Malicia's few honest friends.
     
  13. Necrule Paen

    Necrule Paen DLP Elite DLP Supporter

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    Im not so sure Malicia is a meat puppet in Keter. It is know by Praes at least that meat puppetry is the Dead King's bread and butter, so I don't think Malicia would risk him knowing it's a puppet and being offended to the point of turning down the alliance. She does need the alliance just as much as Catherine does.

    I could see her meat puppeting in Praes instead.
     
  14. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    The Dead King's knowledge and ability basically doesn't matter--the reason Malicia can't just leave her meat puppet in Praes is the same reason why it's easy to figure out her meat puppet is a meat puppet; it looks nothing like her, because it's literally a hollowed out person. The Dead King would know it's not her at a glance, as would everyone else. Malicia can't afford to risk that, especially not for literal months, and she has no good way of making it to Keter besides; literally every method she has involves a march through hostile territory.

    But more to the point, why hide it? It's not like the Dead King wouldn't know she can't leave and any arguable disrespect is negated by the fact that he can pretty casually use that fact to better his bargaining position. It's not as though the Dead King cares about the courtesy, even; he hasn't personally met with anyone, either, except semi-sorta Cat. Worst case scenario, Malicia would throw another country under the bus with a shrug.
     
  15. Stealthy

    Stealthy Groundskeeper

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    "Slip from Cordelia's control" is both an overdramatic way for the Guide to frame things but I guess also not. She's not losing control of her armies, or anything. This is some holy orders taking unapproved initiative, something that wouldn't happen in a normal war, because Cordelia called for a holy one. Declaring Cat - the primary target of the Crusade - arch heretic isn’t unexpected, just politically inconvenient. To call for a Crusade is to call upon the Gods Above, and that is to cede some control to them. We've talked about this before, but with heroism, and it looks similar here. Cordelia Hasenbach may have her earthly plans, but The Gods don't really give a fuck. They just want Cat gone and for Praes to collapse again.

    This kinda makes sense, given that as brilliant as Cordelia is she’s likely unversed in namelore. It’s been mentioned that Procer’s too big and culturally diverse to generate many big time Names, usually one a generation. Saint was one, and the Augur is the recent one, and what few others they generate are small time with small localized stories. They’re Named, but still fodder for the nation-impacting Names in the Woe and Calamities.

    There's no way in hell Malicia's not meatpuppeting, though perhaps she could be attacked through the meatpuppet. For travel I’m assuming she went took a portal to his Hell?

    Also, I still kinda chuckle every time Cat whips one of the most powerful mages on the continent into being her lighter.
     
  16. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    Not much to say about the chapter itself, really; it was interesting, but also kind of filler-ish. The talk with King Edward VII was neat, but not much was actually getting said, because Eddie doesn't really know anything that's happened recently and Cat wasn't really saying much. We got a reiteration of the whole oath against the gods thing, but we've gotten that at least five times before. We were given some reasons to suspect that Malicia might actually be in Keter after all, but I'm not really sure if that changes anything here, because it's really hard to believe that Malicia hasn't been preparing for this for a year now; 'The people who don't like what I'm doing are going to try and kill me over it' is, after all, probably something she assumes by default. It's also a bit hard to believe Masego will really go along with this besides, and there's also the obvious matter of 'Shit Malicia might do to give everyone the finger on the way down.'

    But honestly, the thing I found most interesting about this chapter was the opener, which made me stop and stare in shock.

    You mean people are going to find out about this shit? Isn't that basically a lose condition for Cat? Like, I figured it might happen, but that's a hell of a spoiler to drop in the opener.
     
  17. Nazgoose

    Nazgoose The Honky-tonk ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter DLP Gold Supporter

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    We don't quite know when it becomes public though do we? I went back through and tracked down all the relevant quotes for the Uncivil Wars:

    https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2015/09/30/chapter-27-callows-plan/
    “What Foundling does isn’t thinking outside the box so much as stealing the box and hitting her opponents with it until they stop moving.”


    – Extract from “A Commentary on the Uncivil Wars”, by Juniper of the Red Moon Clan

    https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2016/03/30/chapter-18-tinder/
    “In most histories of the Uncivil Wars, the Battle of Three Hills is but a footnote – especially given its proximity to the much more contentious Battle of Marchford. But for us, back then? Marchford might have been the crucible that forged us, but Three Hills lit the furnace.”


    -Extract from the personal memoirs of Lady Aisha Bishara

    https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2016/12/21/chapter-49-victory/
    “There’s a degree of argument among scholars as to whether the Liesse Rebellion was the underlying cause of the Uncivil Wars or the first of them. I was there, though, and I can tell you this: the seeds that were sown in Liesse are what we reaped in the years that followed.”

    – Extract from the personal memoirs of Lady Aisha Bishara

    https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2017/08/30/interlude-commanders/
    “When historians try to pin down Foundling’s methods they point to the Battle of the Camps or the Princes’ Graveyard, but those came later. After she’d learned her trade. If you want to understand how she operated, look to the Battle of Four Armies and One – from the beginning to the end, she was playing an entirely different game from every other commander on the field.”

    – Extract from “A Commentary on the Uncivil Wars”, by Juniper of the Red Shields


    https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/07/30/chapter-37-offing/
    “Callowans as a people can be summed up by the fact that, before the Uncivil Wars had even come to a close, it’d become a common boast among the populace that the Black Queen had not even spent a sennight in Keter before having several counts of arson and murder to her name.”

    – Extract from the personal memoirs of Lady Aisha Bishara


    From this we can tell that the Uncivil Wars definitely went on for a while, so there's a lot of room for win conditions to change before they come to a close.

    I also find it really interesting that a Crusade is seen as just one of the many and can be bundled up in them.

    EDIT: The quote system was being annoying and broken so I gave up and posted them w/o it.
     
  18. mmm

    mmm First Year

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    I enjoyed this chapter a lot. Beyond the narrative legitimizing Cat as a Callowan Queen even further (as if pulling the sword out of the stone wasn't enough) it also set up a lot of juicy conflict.

    I can't be the only one thinking this is all a test by the Dead King, right? There's five palaces, each guarded by a Named. So far we've got a King of Callow in Edward, Thief of Stars and the Bloody Sword which quite clearly correspond to Cat, Thief and Archer (or maybe Hakram). I'm pretty sure they're going to fight and though I really want to see a battle between two full groups of Named it looks more like it'll be five one-on-ones.
     
  19. Stealthy

    Stealthy Groundskeeper

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    People may discover that Cat went to Keter, but that doesn't mean they'll know why she went in the first place. Evidently, she probably doesn't go there and come out with credit for kickstarting an unholy invasion of Procer. As vindictive as Callowans are, it's the fucking Dead King. You don't let him out of his cage, though she probably pins the whole thing on Malicia if it happens.

    If she goes there and kills the Dread Empress, then yeah she could walk that off, but this whole enterprise sounds like a terrible fucking idea. Killing Malicia halfway(?) through the book is ballsy enough, but if that happens the eastern front of the Crusade collapses. I guess I can buy that Malicia's using the eastern front and possibly her disappearance to flush out the last of her opposition (Nok's been sacked, and it's one of the remaining Trueblood cities), but it's risky business to take her out entirely. Like, I get that the Liesse Accords are probably gonna say "No Named Rulers", and that there's been plenty of foreshadowing about Cat taking the Tower as well, but taking out Malicia here has bad idea written all over it.
     
  20. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Random thought, I know Black is supposed to be away pillaging Procer but Cat hasn't heard news from that in a long time. It's entirely possible that Black is the person negotiating in Keter right now. I hardly believe the Dead King would refuse to talk with Black.

    Or maybe I'm just missing the old bastard.