As most of you no doubt know, there's already a thread here about the Song of Ice and Fire HBO mini-series. But I just started re-reading the books last week and I'm mostly through the third one, and I'm picking up on a lot of things I didn't the first time around. I found myself wanting to discuss them somewhat but that can't really be done in the thread for TV show without liberal use of spoiler tags.

I searched for "Ice and Fire" and "Game of Thrones" on every page of the "Books and Anime Discussion" sub-forum and nothing popped up, so unless the thread somehow managed to not include either of those then there wasn't one already.

On the off-chance someone hasn't read them yet or doesn't know what I'm talking about, here are two links to check out with information on the books themselves, which currently consist of 4 novels, a 5th to come out in July of this year, and a few more planned after that.

The first time I read these books I was doing 12 hours a day of HPLC Fraction Collection while I did so, meaning that I had to glance up from the book literally every minute or so. Apparently that means I didn't catch as much as I should have. And with all the new conversation being generated by the TV show, maybe others would want to discuss all the spoiler-ific details and theories as well. I'll start with another post.

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So to start the discussion, let's go with Jon Snow. I have never really followed the fandom for these books, so I'm sure that this has been proposed by someone else, but it occurs to me that Jon Snow might not actually be Ned Stark's bastard. I first started thinking along these lines when I read again the part where Robert says something along the lines of how his mother must really have been some amazing whore to make Ned Stark forget his honor. Stark really doesn't seem to like that, but his displeasure at the conversation could mean anything. Given though that others think the mother was highborn, and named Dayne, and he doesn't like that either, who knows?

Next up we have him constantly remembering Lyanna forcing him to promise her something unknown before dying. Howland Reed was supposedly the only other person present when this happened, and his children know more of his history with Stark than Bran does (the story they tell him when they set off from Winterfell is obviously allegory for when the Starks met Howland Reed, something else I didn't catch the first time). Then we have all this contradictory crap about Rhaegar -- he was supposedly a pretty good guy all around if you ask anyone but the Starks and their bannermen, even if his father was a fucking lunatic asshole. So did he really steal Lyanna away, or did she agree to go? Or something else entirely? At this point I put some pieces together and formed the theory that Jon was her son with Rhaegar, but he lacks all of the Targaryen features, so who knows. But Rhaegar did apparently think he was doomed for something unpleasant according to Barristan.

Then Beric Dondarrion's squire, a boy named Ned of all things though he is really named Edric Dayne, is described by Arya as having eyes that are almost purple with pale blond hair -- not quite the traditional Targaryen description, but close. And he claims to have been Jon's milk brother. Granted he thinks that Jon's mother is someone named Wylla.

So that's my tentative theory, and I suspect it's wrong. But the clues are there at least, so perhaps another piece of the puzzle will shed some light on what's really going on there.

 

Ah ha, I must have missed it in my searches because it says Fire and Ice instead of Ice and Fire -- or was it even better hidden than that? Thanks for finding it.

I'm not sure what they'll do when they run out of material. If we have one season a year then we are good for 4 years at present, and the 5th book is out soon, so that would give him 5 years or so to get another couple of books out. Doable, but only if he writes a bit faster than in the past.

What else? I can tolerate Dany a lot better this time around. The first time I read through I despised her character, but on a second read through she's not so bad. Still not a favorite though.

What other mysteries are out there? Apart from the Jon Snow one?

 

Right, though I wonder if perhaps there's supposed to actually be a "right" to it here. They keep saying that the magic has gone out of the world since the Dragons died, etc., and if Targaryens actually have something in their blood that ties them to Dragons, then they could make the argument.

But even then I'm not sure why that'd give them the right to rule, and if that was their reasoning and Dragons affected magic worldwide, then shouldn't they feel they had the right to rule everywhere? As a general rule though I agree with you about the right to rule.

I'm thinking Dany will save them all at some point from the Others. Once all the in-fighting is done they'll be overrun somehow and the Dragons will save the realm. Or something. We shall see.

Also perhaps a mod could merge this thread with the old one, as I didn't mean to make a second one. Or not, either way!

 

I'd agree with this. They're probably going to be so damn happy to see her by the time she shows up with her dragons that she won't have to worry about taking the throne so much as saving the realm.

Oh for sure, I meant combining it with the other book thread that someone found (I had missed it b/c I was searching for key phrases and the other thread has "Fire and Ice" in the title instead of the correct order).

I find myself wishing that Aemon had run into Dany before dying. Even if only for a few minutes at the very end, so he could have touched a dragon and she could have seen an older relative she didn't know about. Such a pity and could have been a great scene.

 

Hopefully we'll get some Bran chapters as well. A dragon has three heads and the more I think about it the more I think that either Bran or Jon will be one of them along with Dany, whatever that means. And I wonder where Tyrion's story is going to go next, when he searches for Tysha. Also curious to see how much Jon has changed since getting some experience as Lord Commander -- we see some of it in the 4th book but mostly from Sam's perspective.

And maybe Dany will be less of a trial to read in this new book, we shall see.

 

I just finished re-reading the first 4 books plus the current sample chapter of the 5th in anticipation of the book coming out in July. I think I read a Tyrion sample chapter at some point as well, though I can't seem to find it -- Martin cycles the ones he has listed I guess?

Anyway, the books struck me as a little better the second time around. Probably because I wasn't half so distracted as I was the first time I was reading them. But I still hold that they are merely very good as opposed to the "awesomely great / best thing ever" adjectives that are usually used to describe them.

The Starks I find interesting. Sansa's chapters often irk me but the others, from Eddard down to Bran, all interest me. Even Sansa started becoming a little less irksome in the last -- much like Dany I despised reading about her at first but she slowly grew from a POV character that I dreaded to see to one that was tolerable at least.

Others, like Victarian, Damphair, and other random POV characters still tended to drag the story down for me. Anytime I'm reading and I get to the next chapter and decide I need a break before I can suffer through it something is off -- at least for me, I am sure there are those who quite enjoy reading about the Ironborn, Ser Arys, Cersei, and whoever else.

All in all though I'm really looking forward to the next book. Plus I think at some point that Martin had intended to have enough time pass to age the characters by at least another 5 years or so -- that would put even Rickon at near 10, and Bran almost legally a man grown. I'm more curious about how those two turn out than most of the others. I have no idea where Arya is headed eventually in her quest and training, but her nature is fairly well established. Bran is obviously going to do something with his abilities, but we haven't seen enough of that yet to know what he might or might not be capable of, and Rickon is just an angry blank slate at present. Robb is dead, Sansa will do whatever she dragged along into, and Jon is Lord Commander of the Wall. Tyrion interests the hell out of me as well -- little bastard is fun to read about.

I can't give this series a 5/5 because there are just too many chapters that I don't want to read but I do it anyway, but all the same a 4/5 to something I enjoyed parts of as much as I did doesn't seem fair either. So screw it. I'll settle for hoping that Martin just gets the next one out a little bit faster.

Edit:

Spoiler

Found the other sample chapters linked to via wikipedia somewhere. There are chapters for Jon, Tyrion, and Dany -- the Dany one ended with her finding out that apparently Drogon (her black dragon) has burned a child to a crisp for supper. Tyrion is likely on his way to meet Dany if I read that chapter right, and Jon is going to have his hands full. Good stuff, though I find myself a lot more interested in what Ser Barristan is thinking/doing than what Dany is in her chapters.