This is specifically aimed to be answered by the writing corner, but other authors are welcome to give their own thoughts.

My question is this: how in the hell do you get your chapters and stories to be so damned long?

I've tried and tried to get this right but I simply cannot.

Compare for example my latest story, Mysteries of the Department, to jbern's To Fight the Coming Darkness (great story btw).

My story has covered about 3-4 months, and I am about to write the last chapter after only 11,000 words.

Jbern's story has covered about 2 months, and is well over 100k words.

How do you do it?

I think part of the problem is the fact that I think up the timeline to a story and then take snapshots over the time of the crucial plot points, and these snapshots make up my scenes, and a couple of scenes makes up a chapter.

Even with that though, Sya takes this snapshot approach with Darkness Reigns Supreme and his story is of a respectable length.

Any pointers?

 

Details, details... Try to cover EVERY angle + make it interesting and you'll easily get 10K+ words long chapters... if that's what you REALLY want.

 

There's a big problem with fanfiction in that regard. Most people take things for granted - why say "as he stepped in, a long alley unfolded, dark, and hidden in shadows: Knockturn Alley - skulking ground of the immoral, the illicit, and the imperious" when you can merely say "Harry went down the steps into Knockturn alley"? It's easier... and it's also less interesting. The best authors don't treat fanfiction as fanfiction, but rather as an independent novel of their own. Their allegiance is to the art and to the story, rather than to just putting familiar characters in interesting situations.

Don't think that length is also indicative of quality. Though you might love a fanfic, keep in mind that unnecessary writing is just Bobmincing the fic. If you are writing something and you can't think of the purpose of writing it, you shouldn't write it. The best independent novels are usually between 40k and 100k words, mostly because they are long enough to provide a glimpse and not long enough to bore.

If you're really looking to lengthen your chapter, then you need to stop and reflect. Why do you want to make it longer? Just because 100k words looks great in a profile (this is why I joined high-school football), or do you feel that you're being functionally compromised by shorter chapters?

Another thing, as a mystery writer - this is not so much applicable to action/adventure writers - there is always use in writing a bit more to obfuscate clues.

That's my answer. If you really need to lengthen things because it's too short and doesn't hold attention long enough, then add descriptions. Write a basic chapter, and then go back and fluff it up. Calculate 30 seconds for page of dialogue, and 45 seconds for page of text. Ask yourself if a person who had forgot what something was or who someone is would remember them from your description (again, a Bobminced! problem). And then, after that's all over, and it's still short, consider framing each of the snapshots you take with moments before and after. Although it might seem dramatic to drop off right after a serious point or start with them in a big situation, it helps the reader to understand what's gotten them there.

Happy writing.

 

Chapter length is all up to you, but I have to agree don't over inflate them if you don't need to. I generally look at a story along the lines that a novel is roughly 100k, and twenty to thirty chapters. Thus my chapters almost always run 3-4k each. I've had a few run 7k but at that point I probably had a point I could have chopped them.

Three thousand words translates to five pages typed (according to my copy of word). That's long enough to be worth reading, but not so long that you have to commit to being here a while.

Long, detail rich chapters are great and all, but if they get too long or the same bits get detailed over and over people never make it through a story. I dropped Bobmin's stories for just this reason.

My technique in writing is similar to your snapshot technique. I take those ideas for each major event, chop them up and start asking questions untill I have things filled in. How did things progress from the first scene to the second? Is it going to be relegated to a single sentance somewhere in the first paragraph or are you going to flesh out intervening scenes? How are the people around him reacting? Is there anything happening in the background or in a different area right now that will make a difference later? Try to remember that while the story centers around one or two characters everyone else is living a life in the background. Are they going to take an interest? Are they going to harass our hero? If the harassment he suffers from his peers is part of his motivation for doing/becoming/summoning/killing X, show some of it so that we fully grasp his motivation. Just ask yourself alot of questions that you think your reviewers or readers are going to be asking and then write the answers into the story.

Some stories can be easily told in 11,000 words. Others need supporting information and might expand to 25 or 50k. You write your stories, don't be fussed about what people expect too much. Remember all the fangirls writing 600 word chapters, or the long winded blowhards with 12000. You find the length that works for you and stick with it.

 

I have to agree with Rob whole heartily in this regard. Dont write so much for someone who knows the cannon backwards but for the occasional reader who enjoyed the authors works and wants to read some more.

Or even for someone who is unfamiliar with the story. I cant drop fics fast enough if they assume that I am familiar with every bit of detail so that they dont have to go into any detail. For example if I was reading a smallville cross (Ive only ever seen the shorts and am familiar with the basic premise) I should not be totally confused about whats happening and why because you the author will be filling in these details.

Also, in a fanwork - you essentially make the characters your own as they evolve and adapt to events as they happen. In this reguard, characterisation will help fill in the details.

 

I agree with what's listed above, and I'll tell you what I do:

Scenes.

Not simple scenes, make sure that each scene that you go into is pivotal, or at the very least, slightly important to your plot. When you ahve a complex scene, try to visualize exactly what you want to happen, exactly what the characters' roles are, what they need to be doing, and what needs to be done in response to their actions.

Don't hesitate from going into detail even with simple things. If someone died, then don't be shy of describing the emotional effect of the death on other people. As a reader, I love when an author goes into the minute details; not only does it seem like they truly care about their work, but it also gives you a unique insight into the character that they are trying to portray. Remember, of course, to stay in character whenever you do this.

If you have small, insignificant scenes, then okay. But make sure that you have a minimum of two lengthy, pivotally important scenes in each chapter. The more important a scene is to the way you want your fic to turn out, the more you will think about it. And that extra thought will manifest itself in words, that much I can guarantee you.

Perhaps try and delve into the plot more, try and visualize every second of what's happening. Put yourself into the picture as the main character in each scene. That can even save you from writing a character/dialogue badly, since the decisions that you make on behalf of the characters themselves will be decisions that hold the most logic in your mind.

And what Kung_Lou said about canon is very true. Think of it this way...when you read a fanfic with appropriately long descriptions, you get a feel for the actual canon. So think of the reader who's barely skimmed HP canon and stumbled across fanfiction...try to write your story so that there aren't that many gaps in their knowledge.

And lastly: give each chapter a point of impact. Something ridiculously pivotal should happen that makes the reader sit up and take notice of the chapter. For example, in TinnTam's latest fic, when I read the part about the reporter hitting the ceiling, I snapped up and stared. You don't need something that hardcore, but if something abruptly takes place, not only do you have the shock value of the event, but you also have the opportunity to do one of the following:

1) Describe what happened again, but slowly let in more details to make it seem less shocking...its kind of like letting the reader down softly rather than just smacking them in the face with a death, or whatever.

2) Describe what happened, in that split second of shock, from the perspective of the other characters in the scene. Once again, emotions and physical responses can be described in great detail.

It seems like a lot of what I'm saying is plain filler, but once you write it, it'll seem like a lot more. Not only does it beef up your chapter, but it also gives you so much more to work with, in terms of characters, personalities, etc. The little nuances, even something so minute as a character having a stuttering problem, can help you later on in ways that'll shock you.

Good luck with your fics, mate.

Edit: Obviously, and I feel stupid even for mentioning this, don't try and stretch to over 6-7000 words if you only have one or two scenes. Then, it'll just make the reader skim through it and not bother reviewing.

 

Measuring things by word counts or page counts is the wrong way to think of it. It doesn't matter that your story is only 11,000 words, and jbern's is nearing 200,000.

You're asking how can you cover more in your story. More details, more scenes, more characters, more in-depth analysis, etc... And that has nothing to do with the author, and very little to do with the amount of adjectives you use. It's about the story you're telling. The outline and sheer scale. jbern's got lots of skirmishes, internal battles, romance, training, politics, little known side characters taking on major roles, sub-plot after sub-plot, etc...

Longer stories aren't better stories. They just take more time to read. And when you start digging into the details you want, the volume of your story will take shape. And they can get out of hand real quick. You can cover all 7 years of Hogwarts in a couple paragraphs, if your story is primarily about a final battle. Or you can take the Lightning on the Wave route, prattle on for millions upon millions of words and still have an annoying teenage school kid running around, angsting over politics.

It's the story the defines the length more than a measure of words or injected descriptions.

 

It's a great question. My problem is I get too involved in the story. I am trying to write something that I like to read and I like epics! I like all kinds of storylines and bizarre developments that don't resurface until chapters later. The other part that has really slowed the progress down is secondary character development. I could have pretty much eliminated chapter 5 completely and the story wouldn't really look any different. Still there were some nice details about the life of the not so necessarily priveleged purebloods like the Edgecombs and the Higgs and how sometimes people are forced into becoming Death Eaters do to simple lack of choice. Plus it set up Death by Knightbus, one of my favorite parts of the early story!

Similarly, when Azkaban fell I wanted the reader to feel Azkaban falling. Not just some cuttaway scene where Order member X informs our little group of fidelius refugees that the prison was emptied and fell. Instead it was two whole chapters.

My advice is to look at the story you are trying to write. If you aren't satisfied with the length and level of details, then grab a secondary character and give them a few lines. Have them engage your main character in a somewhat meaningful manner. Maybe Charlie has a story from school that might help Harry see his way through a potential problem? Describe Neville taking care of plants in a herbology greenhouse or Hermione's annoying behavior like arguing with herself while studying that she developed as a way to keep people from sitting next to her and bothering her and how Harry and Ron deal with it. Observe real people in real life and look for quirks. Pass those quirks onto the characters in your story.

Be careful though, I have already started to wander into endless summer category in both my fics. Hell my posts are even too long....

Hope this helps,
Jim

 

Chapter length depends entirely upon your style of writing. Many fanfic authors love action, and have very little description in their narrative - something I feel is paramount to any good story. Generating imagery is one of the most crucial parts of a story - without it, you've written a script in the wrong format.

When planning out your stories, it is generally accepted that you'll have several major plot points, or story arcs. And within these plots, you have subplots, each chapter should cover a couple of these to keep your story moving along and preventing the dreaded plot-hole.

Don't concentrate on the crucial plot points only, that gives your story a sort of 'one-track mind' which can be boring to some readers. Create plots within your plots, take time to add more dialogue between characters, or if dialogue isn't your thing, add more narrative. Make your story come alive to the reader.

Create difficulty for your characters, plot twists. If Harry has now found a horcrux, and has destroyed it and the entire scene seems anti-climactic you need to fix it. Create conflict, what problems can arise from certain actions, make the possible happen - keep your story alive and kicking, rather than sitting back and allowing yourself the easy way out. As one of my English teachers once told me "If you've written something that seems entirely too easy, or simple, or doesn't have any meaning, ask why. Then fix it."

I've found that a good chapter length is 15 - 20 pages in word at 12pt font, that gives room for anything that could happen within your fic. If you set yourself a word limit, and find that you cannot meet it, go back through the chapter and continue adding to it. Give your stories some sustinence.

I hope that helped.

 

Snapshot Style:

I played with this alot.

Remember all those classes you took on English, where the teacher pounded your head about symbolism - and you'd tear through the book wondering "What the fuck does John Gardner want to symbolize when Grendel pulled on a vine the first time, and a snake the second?"

Those are important. The reader may not notice these qualities, but their subconcious certainly will.

I can't stress this enough.

There is more to a story than plot, details, and cool characters.

Here's a really simple one that I just wrote a few minues ago: Describing that Hogwart's lake's water was a bit more green than before can represent a general decrease in prosperity, happiness, quality of life, whatever. It also connects with the green of Slytherin House, and the power of Lord Voldemort - his effect on the things he hates. The Killing Curse.

These small minor details make all the difference in the world, and can bulk up quality and quantity.

And please remember that adding to dialogue only makes things worse. It's what you don't say that the reader should be interested in.

Don't add a "Hey Ron!" - keep it a They greeted each other cordially. Write dialogue only when it has a purpose.

I hope that helps.

 

One thing you should ask yourself: is it needed? Some scenes are best written as simple, but visual. Long flowery explanations can deter the reader from your story line and may take you away from where you actually want to go. That being said, it's easier to put more in first and edit it out later.

The detail you put in there will set the mood of the scene ie, like cherry red vs blood red. You'll want to make sure that what you did put in there is relevant to the plot.

Not sure if this will help, but here's my two cents...

 

Everyone else has really hit the major points you need, and are far more experienced than I, but maybe I can throw some sort of help in here to mix in.

Your first problem is your worry about your story. Already, right in the first sentences of your post, you compared your story to someone else's and you felt inadequate. You're already setting yourself up to not really put your all into your story. When you do that, you lose your drive. And essentially you begin to lose the ability to write in a compelling fashion. So don't beat yourself up just yet, you're perfect where you're at.

The best thing you can remember is to visualize and LOVE what you are wanting to write. Your keyboard is your paint brush and the screen is your canvas. When you sit down to write, don't just think of the basic pictures you want to make. Visualize it. Everytime your fingers hit the keys, make sure there's going to be some impact on the screen. You have to 'love' what you're going to be writing. When you do, every detail will kind of express itself in your head.

One of the best things is to know EXACTLY where your story is going as well. Not every single climactic point but the large bullet points. How will it start? How will it end? And what are the major catalyst's that will happen? Then build from there, throw in as many different twists and turns and side stories as you want. Never be afraid to turn one story into another, into another, into another. If you know where it will all end up, then everything will flow together with ease, no matter how much you put out there. If you have no light at the end of the tunnel though, you can easily lose yourself and essentially your story.

If you find an intriguing idea, run with it. Always think BEYOND the scenario you want to get to. As an example:

-You want to write about a character death. That's perfect. You've got a scenario. Now you've got to think PAST it, and use it's consequences to your advantage. You've got the death, what can come after?

-Mourning. You've got another scenario unfolding right there. A character's actions following the loss of a loved one. Emotional, psychological and even physical intensities that you can use to hook readers and keep them at the edge.

-What can you spawn from the mourning? Revenge. Now you've pushed the trauma, it's time to push another scenario. A catalyst that can even flow through many chapters, and traverse several other scenarios from that one.

Right there you have 2 other scenarios that spawn from your initial idea. And a character death is just a simple example. There's hundreds of situations you can use, sometimes more then one at a time, to constantly manipulate and twist to add more structure, more depth, more captivation, and if it's what you're really looking for, more length.

Never be afraid to use outside influences either. Think outside the box. Watch movies to help inspire fight scenes. How can you take that fight scene, and visualize it as a magical duel? Watch political stuff and incorporate that. Soak in outside influences like they were gold.

Another thing that might help, is to change scenery from time to time. Everyone knows what Hogwarts looks like. We all know what Hogsmeade looks like. So take Harry away from that from time to time. Throw him in a situation that requires him to go places he's never been before. Once you find yourself in a new land, then you've got new territory to explore. New situations that can come from that. An entirely new canvas to start with.

Stay on the cutting edge. Take every duel to the extreme. Take every emotion to the edge. Grip every image in your brain and wring it out. Never be afraid to push the envelope, whether it concerns emotions, images, places, characters, or even actions. When you start limiting yourself, you'll find yourself with less to say. The more intense you can make everything around Harry, the more you'll have to write about.

And for the sake of not rambling, I'll cut myself off there. I'm pretty sure most members wouldn't mind being PM'd about being a sound board if you need more help, myself included.

Hope that helps!

 

Good advice, but I'd also like to point out two things that arise from this. First, never take the reader to some place so far from the norm that the suspension of disbelief is - well, suspended. You need to keep the reader believing. That's a huge thing that a lot of people have forgotten to mention. The story is nothing if no one believes in it - if nobody gets caught up in it.


The second thing is that many good stories, while having a varying range of locales always pop up in the same location by convenience. This is something I've seen mostly by observance, and I understand this as a writer - there's an aspect of 'setting the stage', so to speak, to foreshadow that things happen there before they do. Notice that Tattooine from Star Wars appears in 4/6 movies. We are taken time and time again in HP into Dumbledore's office. Great things tend to happen in similar places.

 

Motivation could be key to writing more.

 

For me, writing is like a first person shooter.

I have the basic mission outline- what to do, how to do it, when to do it, what it's gonna be like, etc.,- then i just let it rip. I see the location in my mind, and describe the smallest things possible. How the air feels, is the air even fresh, what it looks like, what's underfoot, and add a bit of what the character is seeing and feeling, and voila! What originally was: Harry walked into the room.

Turns into: Harry hesitantly entered the darkened and misty room through the archway on the east side of the old, crumbling brick building.

And I could go on and on describing, but then it gets too boring.

 

The more words does not make it a better story. it is frustrating to read a good story with small chapters but that just how some people make good chapters. Some people can convey alot with less words where as others have to write a lot to get their message across.

I have read good stories that were short chapters and some that were long chapters. I guess it depends on your writing style, I prefer shorter chapters with quick updates.

 

In addition to several things already mentioned:

Write down your ideas even if you don't need them at the moment:
I still use pen and paper and have a folder with material I might or might not use later on. As I, too, have a timeline of events, I can already plan on future scenes. For some chapters I have lists of what I want to include and what I have to include. For instance: What has to happen during the first week at Hogwarts? Is there something missing? I have to mention the timetable, one encounter with Malfoy, Dean's and Seamus' position concerning the 'war', students harassing the Chosen One, etc. Not all points of the list will be used later, but I am able to chose out of a bunch of ideas and don't need to excruciate my brain the moment I actually work on a chapter.

Reread your stuff some days later:
I always type a draft of a scene or a chapter, print it, and let it rest. It's often incomplete, missing elements deliberately marked by [...]. Dialogues often flow unnaturally; descriptions are often very short. Some parts are often like the snapshots Taure mentions in his initial post. But I can start working on the next chapter, as I know where the last one ends.

Some days later I start to reread the draft and insert comments, additions, etc, and slowly the scene grows in size and quality. If I cross a sentence or a paragraph out, I can still decide later on, if I really want to delete it. I can take it everywhere and add something that suddenly comes to my mind.

It's a technique I used for all my university stuff. The downside: Comments added during train rides are barely readable later

 

I'm pretty sure Taure is of the male variety...unless there's something we don't know that you two aren't telling us?

 

*innocently whistling and slowly retreating into the background*

Ok. I'm sorry. Really sorry. I'll never do it again. At least not with Taure. Really. Never.