There has been literally one chapter since then though, I'd say that's a sample size not big enough to make a judgement. Normally I'd agree with you in regards to authors on that lovely website, but this one hasn't let me down too terribly at all.

 

I gave up on it mainly because there's not a single likable character. It just utterly killed my interest in the story because I don't care about any of these people

 

I didn't give up on it. I just shelved it until this whole Danny/PRT shit can be resolved. I just have very, very little interest in any of that. If I want senseless tragedy and antagonism I'll read A Song of Ice and Fire. I'll skim it or read parts that don't involve that until it more or less fades.

Also: the goofiness of

Spoiler

Armsmaster posing as a teacher was simply too much for me

EDIT:I might have been a bit uncharitable and terse, on reflection. To be fair: it's well-written and if your tolerance for that sort of conflict is high I'd say that you should go for it. It is at least trying to have forms of conflict that aren't "two people start punching each other with powers and then Taylor wins" (which I constantly bitch about) and the author is restraining her powers...for now so we haven't gone on a bender of Taylor solving the problems of entrenched crime like some vigilante Jesus.

 

Firebird is another story that would be better without Danny.

 

Most stories, including canon, might have better with the exclusion of Danny. I never felt like his character and characerization added anything to the story which couldn't have been just as easily replaced by 'what would my dad think, if he were still alive/around'.

Danny was written fairly well as a father who was mostly absent due to not knowing how to handle his supervillain daughter. If that emotional point had been more expanded upon, if he'd been more than - honestly? - a complete background character to Taylor's story, I might stick up for him more as integral part of the protagonist's canon characterization, thus by proxy Worm's main story as a whole.

As it is? In canon he was barely tolerable as a moral obstacle for Taylor going full villain in the first half, and literally nothing else.

In fanfiction, his character alone and how the author deals with him is the giant anchor which drowns many a fanfic (I disregard the Lung fight, as that mostly ends up as power-fap material for a new powerset). In Zero no Tsukaima terms, he's the duel with Guiche. In Naruto terms, he's the Wave Arc/Chunin Exam. In Game of Thrones terms, he's the Red Wedding/Cersei Lannister. How it's handled is a good barometer for the quality of the rest.

I personally consider Cenotaph/Wake and Weaver Nine to be the best stories in the Worm fandom. I note very pointedly that dialogue with Danny is not present in either of them.

 

IIRC some dialogue with Danny is present in Weaver Nine, just not much.

 

While I think your point about Danny is spot-on regarding how he's handled in Worm fanfic, two things:

1. Pretty sure Weaver 9 has a pretty big Danny element, especially after the Leviathan fight. Isn't there that whole big thing where he survived in Boston, and he's talking with Jack, and they're maybe going to adopt Sophia? Or am I taking crazy pills?

2. The one thing I think Danny does well in canon is give the reader a wider lens into seeing how Skitter is perceived. That section where he goes to her hideout after she's outed, talks to her people, sees the children... how he's mostly terrified, but kind of proud - I mean holy shit, she was a criminal mastermind, she was doing these great big important things - when you're in Taylor's head a lot of what she does is kind of run-of-the-mill, or at least she's kind of "whatever" about it, but then when you re-construct it from Danny's perspective (and thus from this wider "regular citizen" perspective with the added emotional content of it being, duh, her dad) it can be kind of awesome.

I have yet to see a Worm fanfic reproduce that kind of use for him, though.

 

I'm following it. It's interesting and decently written. Nothing exceptional, that said.
Tbh though, I'm kinda reading it for the massive stomp that will occur when Taylor realises the full power of the Phoenix Force.

 

When I was reading Worm I disliked Danny, not because he was ineffectual as a father, but because he'd have held Taylor back from the path she'd chosen. He'd limit her agency when a large part of the draw of the first half of the story was about Taylor breaking free.

 

Fics that don't have Taylor being a villain don't have this excuse.

 

Just finished rereading Wake, and I just realised that the architect Cyril Bernsheim that Taylor hired

Spoiler

was Accord. Damn, that makes Piggot's conspiracy theory even more viable.

 

Really? Damnit, need to reread that bit. Makes sense, though, I always felt like there was more focus on the architect than seemed necessary for his role.

 

I disagree. To me that is the one of, if not the best example of Danny and Taylor's relationship in fanfiction. In it Danny serves almost the exact same role that he does in canon. He is an obstacle to Taylor's own independence as a person. Those fights between them represent the natural struggle between teenagers and their parents. Teenagers are becoming more and more capable and also fighting to establish themselves as adults, parents generally struggle to accept that; they are too use to having their children depend on them for everything.

I can't to relate to a parent, who isn't a cape, being okay with their child going out to fight criminals who have guns or super-powers. To me, without a damn good reason, every parent's first response to learning about their child being a super-hero would be to forbid it. It is crazy dangerous, they wouldn't be good parents if they didn't. However the kids not only have the power to ignore their parent, they have an alien entity telling them to seek conflict on top of being a regular teenager. When the parent finally understands that they can't control their child, then they will negotiate to set limits. Like joining the Wards.

The first step to writing a good Danny is to make sure that he is a source of conflict. After that everything is a matter of execution and commitment. My only complaint with Firebird's Danny is having to read his POV, and how he never even tries to stop Taylor completely. But given the circumstances when he learns about her being a cape, I am able to go along with it.

Beyond that there are a number of Danny's lines and actions that compare to his canon characterization's nuances. I really liked that line he gives when he is justifying sending Taylor to the Wards.

Strikes fail when the union and workforce over value themselves. Danny was presumably a part of his union's catastrophic strike. The line above shows that same weakness. Danny has an inflated sense of self-worth. Piggot, the PRT, the Protectorate, none of them give a damn about him. Taylor is the only one that matters. Hell, Piggot was even contemplating whether she could shuffle all of the blame for Taylor's situation onto him.

 

Meh, that's kinda reaching, especially tying it all to Danny having an inflated sense of self-worth and this being the root of some union strike thing. He doesn't seem like the type.

The fact is that the PRT is an organization that has at least some amount of accountability through the Youth Guard and the fact that they're part of the government and have to be the slightest bit more careful compared to random dumb teenagers who just do whatever they like. It doesn't matter if they like him, but there's some system beyond merely appealing to the responsibility of a kid that can mentally bench-press cars.

We saw this quite clearly happen in canon (in an extreme case, to be fair)when Piggot has to talk to parents to even ask kids about fighting S-class threats whereas Taylor did whatever the fuck she pleased.

Whatever the problems and weaknesses of the Wards are (Wildbow talks about the sort of biases you'd see in popular teams with star athletes--students get more time off from school) it's far better than unaccountable little shits who believe that they can go it alone in a city full of entrenched crime problems because of ill-defined concerns like "Wards drama" or "bureaucracy".

For the average law-abiding citizen it should be quite a common sentiment.

 

That's why I called it a nuance. Neither example is close to concrete, but the interpretation is there. Mostly the Union example is a stretch though.

I think you are exaggerating the accountability that the government forces on the Wards program. Will signing Taylor up for the Wards make her safer both to society and herself? Yes. Will it force Piggot to keep Danny in the loop as to her activities as a Ward? I doubt it. Even if it does, Piggot would be willing to half ass it as much as she can to keep Taylor happy. Because Taylor would be her priority. There would be nothing stopping Taylor from leaving town, getting a new costume and setting up shop on the west-coast and Piggot knows it.

 

Danny has more room to work with, either way. Looking at the Youth Guard penalties it can get pretty bad for people who play fast and loose with Wards.

Danny will have to be kept in the loop, just in case Taylor is put in a dangerous situation. IF she is put in a dangerous situation and hurt he'll need to know. No doubt there'll be all sorts of other logistical issues like when she has to be off school or gone for a while.


Will he receive updates every day? Even for most of the stuff they do? No. But then, Danny will probably sleep fine without knowing the average day of the Wards. Stuff like the bank robbery is still safer than what we saw almost happen to Taylor last chapter. Well, I would sleep fine, because I know.

And the thing is, Taylor isn't that powerful yet. Maybe someday she'll be Hot Shit(tm) enough that the rules don't apply, but I think there's a tendency to go to the other end in the fandom, and give the PRT total tunnel vision when it comes to new capes to the point where apparently nothing matters but their acquisition. There's the matter of being personally liable for some huge kerfuffle with the Youth Guard and a parent whose kid got hurt because you didn't take their concerns seriously vs. some cape running off to another state and being another department's problem or just being left alone.


I think it's partly because of how Wards as essentially seen as the Protectorate 2.0, or the alternate side's version of the Undersiders. But I suspect (I'll go through the pre-Leviathan chapters when I wake up) that Wards generally have more sedate professional lives when the BB branch can afford it, at least during the timeline we saw in BB. The Undersiders...had it rough.

Either way, the alternative seemed to be complete capitulation and having no idea what his child was doing unless that child decided to share. Perfect is not the enemy of the good and all .

 

I agree with Cleanrag, I think Danny is written as an excellent point of conflict. Moreover I'm glad that at some point well written conflict between Taylor and Danny occurred, especially as Danny is described very early on in the series as having a poor temper, and Taylor clearly has issues with authority, let alone a Taylor inhabited with the Phoenix Force.

At some point I need to write up my issues with weaver 9 as well, because that story is one that's quite good but not flawless.

 

I think scrib, that we are splitting hairs at this point.

I have an aunt that works in the psych ward of a hospital. One of the irritations of her job is dealing with parents whose teen is on a 72 hour lock-down because they were threatening to kill themselves. Knowing their child is being watched and evaluated by professionals is probably a million times better than seeing them holding a gun to their head. It doesn't change how pissed off they are at the situation they are in. They have absolutely no control over their suicidal kids at that point and it drives them up the wall.

You are right Danny would be much happier with Taylor in the wards. But he would probably forget how miserable he was when she never comes home and he only gets a three sentence email whenever she breaks her arm fighting Hookwolf. He won't be sleeping fine in that situation.

I think you are overestimating the amount of pressure the Youth Guard is able to exert here. As Taylor shows in Firebird the teens are the ultimate authority when it comes to joining the Wards. If they don't want to be there then they wont. If the Youth Guard pushes too hard and they are no longer able to fight crime the way they want too then they will leave to do their own thing. Or worse, never even consider joining up.

The Youth Guard is a government program set up by politicians to win the votes of people that don't understand cape politics. It can't be any less than 90% hot air. If the wards bolt then the only ones that are going to catch them will be the protectorate. Once they are caught what are they going to do to them? Keep them in a jail cell? There is no way that the protectorate heroes are going to be capturing other heroes only to see them treated worse than the Villains who are put in low security cells and allowed to escape.

Edit to prevent double post:

I think my problem with Firebird is Armsmaster's decision to tell Danny anything. It is a violation of the unrwitten rules and he should have damn well known that it could have gone so badly. It was a pretty hamfisted way to create the drama that has been played out since then. Better would have been for Danny to just figure it out on his own.

 

Chiming in to agree that writing Danny is a tricky issue. I think there's room for plenty of interpretations of his character l don't tend to follow the school of 'Danny is supposed to be X so you ought to write him that way' (where X = ineffectual parent, moral tether, source of outside perspective on Taylor, etc...). It's a matter of what grabs you as a writer and what's best for your fic.

The problem is...when Taylor is the protagonist, what does Danny add to the story? If you make Danny a weak side character, he probably won't add much to the story, and you have to contort your plot so that 'father is reduced to a non-presence' doesn't strain the reader's SoD (as canon Danny did to some readers). But if you make a strong Danny, where he's driving the plot, it's hard for him to do it except at the cost of Taylor's agency as a protagonist. An attraction of Worm fic is to write stories about Taylor doing cool things with her cool powers and her cool teammates, and tethering herself to a fretting unpowered Danny at home drags that down.

Some approaches to handle it:

- Write Danny out of the story early on. Like Cenotaph or Apex.

- As CleanRag said, make Danny a source of your plot's conflicts. Trying to keep her cape life secret from him, trying to get him to let her join the Wards, etc. The problem is making it engaging to the reader. Writers have done these plotlines many times before (including in canon!), so it's easy to come off as stale retreads. And more generally, some readers want to see cool power uses rather than home-life angst.

- Reinterpret or straight-up change Danny's character, or his relationship with Taylor, so he can credibly share the driver's seat for the powered portions of the plot, without dragging them down. Maybe by working together with Taylor. Say...Boss!Danny is a grudge-bearing union organizer who wants to use Taylor's new powers as a tool to get revenge on the Mayor and his cronies for shutting down the Ferry.

- Similar to the above: give Danny powers. Taylor knows/doesn't know, and Danny is her ally/enemy. Lots of possibilities, but then you have to consider the question: is Danny's personality really suited to the plot you want? What do you gain by using Danny-with-powers rather than an OC?

- Lastly: keep Danny's canon personality, but have him find out about Taylor's cape life...and instead of having him be an ineffectual non-presence, have him be a (gasp!) effective, supportive parent who she leans on as a much-needed source of strength! We never saw what he's capable of in canon, since Taylor kept him in the dark about her cape life until they'd drifted entirely apart. IMO, there's no need for Danny to always be a big source of conflict and angst, and frankly it would be a relief to see him written as a straight-up supporting character for once.

I haven't seen this last one tried very often. The problem is that we have little material to work with. We see so little of him and his skills in canon, and he seems so out of his depth in cape life. But I think it can be done! You could have him dispense fatherly wisdom to help Taylor compensate for some of her biased perspective due to her teenagerness. Or use his union negotiation skills to make sure the PRT gives her a fair shake, if she joins the Wards and gets into a bad place with Piggot/Armsmaster/Shadow Stalker. Or use his management skills to teach her how to run a team of capes, or become the manager for her team and henchmen (suppose we change canon so that he's in charge of Skitter's 'employees', and takes over as second in command when she's away from her territory?). Or...

P.S. In Weaver Nine Danny doesn't appear much, but I was trying to hint at a fancier narrative trick, by turning the Danny Dilemma on its head. In most stories, with Taylor Hebert as the protagonist, Danny is a problem because he puts limits on our protagonist's agency; we end up rooting against him so Taylor can get on with her story. But with Jack Slash as the protagonist, we can root for Danny to limit his agency, to be a moral tether that keeps Jack's ruthless pursuits on the side of sorta-good. Or so I hoped.

Thanks, and please do! It was my first long story and isn't perfect by any means. I'd love to hear feedback, both positive and negative. There are some issues that come up in multiple reviews, but each review also brings up a few unique issues I hadn't noticed before, too!

(Note: I addressed a few of the issues in the ArchiveOfOurOwn version of the fic; though those were minor edits, not fixes for broader structural/style issues)

 

Like you said.. all those options turn Danny in a fully OC character who in 90% of the cases will extremely badly written and seriously minimize Taylor's agency which is something that really hurts a story that is mainly written from her perspective and for me personally is a enough reason to drop a story.

Your idea of making him her henchmen is a prime example of things I would never want to read about. You would need to massively change both Taylor and Danny (to an extent that both character are completely OC) to accomplish such a situation in a halfway believable way and somehow avoiding to shift the narrative from Taylor to Danny (which I think would be the hardest- in all the stories I have read that tried to go that road we end up in a situation where Taylor ends up being the simple executive of her father orders/suggestions.)