Oh, why did you have to raise this back up again? The people here were just forgetting about this little arguement. I swear, if we go back to pride-bashing and whatnot, I'll..........well, I'll do absolutely nothing, because I have no power, but I'll be annoyed....but I don't think anybody will care.

Hmm

 

Sorry Maltese - I didn't mean to bring up a topic people wanted dead. I am just honestly curious. I read through the thread and no one brought it up and to me it seemed like the most obvious issue to be addressed. I realize that I could probably do some digging and actually look up historical records, but frankly I'm lazy and I do know there are poeple here who would have the answer as to what the UK witch trial/burnings times might be like and when they were compared to the US ones. If people want to leave the thread dead, feel free to PM me the info as I don't mean to bring it into a discussion, I just want to know.

 

Nah, don't mind me. I was just dreading another bitch-fest in the IRC when the arguements started again.

 

Simply put, America is best in everything. Including Magic.

 

And the need for a blatantly flame baiting minor bump was...?

 

On topic, we have the Witch hunting craze from about 1450 - about 1660/1670. It kinda died down about then. Over the course of the Witch Craze (with its varying heights and drops) there were about 110,000 witch trials, with about 60,000 people killed. With around 111 million people living in Europe at that time, the American Witch Trials seem a bit tame in comparison don't they?

Strange thing is, the Spanish Inquisition, which has the reputation of being bloody, brutal and ready to torture & kill at a moments notice... They didn't kill many. From around 10,000 witch trials in Spain & Italy, only approx. 300 were killed.

Off topic, yeah please don't necro threads that decended into flame baiting festivals. It does not bode well for the forum.

Aekiel

 

Aekiel, you might know better than I, since I only have a very basic knowledge of witch hunting era history, but wasn't there some guy entitled the Witchfinder General, who was accused eventually of being a witch or devil worshiper or something himself, and he disappeared. If I remember correctly the most prevalent rumour is that he escaped to the New World, as it happened just before one of the major witch hunting crazes started up over there. This correct or am i confuzzling things?

 

My take on the American Magical Community.

In theory (because that is all there is, duh), the community would be separate, unless it goes against cannon, otherwise American characters would be more common.

Also I think the American community is likely more modern and diverse (just stands to reason, not that reason and magic usually mix). Not just that, it is also far larger in population, due to two factors, one that America's size and population is larger in general and two that likely there are far more muggleborns allowed into and remaining within its society.

Given what we know about the British ministry from both cannon and fanfics, it seems likely that most muggleborns would not be allowed in, they probably would never get funding to go to school, rather it is a good bet that the ministry just binds/removes their magic instead (there are many of the major popular fics which often explore such things). Why not just leave the be, well then they would be considered untrained and that would endanger the secrecy of the magical world. It is even possible that the ministry just out right kills them, though that would make them far darker and vile than jkr indicates, and really I do not think that is as logical.

So just how much larger would the american's community be? I would say at least 100 times or more. Given all the factors that keep the British population low. Some including major wars and exclusive purebloods. Much of each generation would have left for, work and opportunities that are being denied them. While it is doubtful a high percentage of those leaving would end up in America, a certain amount from every other community around world is likely to relocate there.

I would think that given the nature of the purebloods and ministry, that other ministries would also be insular at least to a certain degree. Thus any real population count done of America's magical community, would not be accepted as fact and whatever literature it is recorded in would not be sold. As such hardly anyone would know its population count, and much of the remaining details about the community would also be censored.

In a way I see the purebloods and British ministry of magic to be similar to north korea and other insular countries.

Really a fair statement to describe it would be not as some eden but as similar to muggle america.

Now as to how many muggleborns there are, well really what is a muggleborn anyways? It is a witch or wizard that comes from the muggle population. Nevermind that a good number could really be halfbloods, what with the spells that wizards have, they can easily have all the fun they want with muggles and a quick memory charm makes nobody the wiser. Plus not all wizards would take precautions (other than silencing spells and perimeter wards, perhaps locking spells as well). It would be all too easy for the wizards. Unless they were death eaters out for killing, then their activities would be unnoticed so long as their victims remained alive.

The numbers of muggleborns is not likely to be accurately reported either, so it could easily be a ratio of 100 to 1 or more. Given that such activities would have been going on for centuries and likely in most areas of the world. It is not hard to think that there should be a much higher magical world population. Really why are wizards and witches not out numbering muggles. It has to be due to social and not natural reasons.

As to the topic of guns, the arguments concerning energy seem the most realistic to me. An average wizard verse a muggle with a rifle or pistol, yeah shielding is simple enough and should be possible, the muggle has very slim odds. However against semiautomatic, fully automatic and shotguns, well that is far different. The energy to block that much at such a fast rate would be much higher, holding such a shield together would take far more mental efforts. Plus it depends on what kind of shield it is, a hard or kinetic shield would be draining. The average wizard would quickly tire if they had to make a shield like that to cover their entire bodies. A smaller directional shield could be cast but it would not provide nearly the same amount of protection.

I do think wizarding kind would be totally screwed against muggles. It would quickly be over, even if the muggles only used guns. Now add in small explosives such as grenades, well then it ends even faster. Then there is bombs and we have the equivalent of a giant stepping on an ant.

Of course a rare wizard such as voldemort or dumbledore, well then even 1 on 1 them vs a muggle with a semi automatic gun, well that is likely end with one less muggle. Still a sniper making a good clean headshot should permanently down at least dumbledore. While I doubt voldemort would be affected (mostly due to many rituals and such, as he is likely really into physical enhancement). Of course dumbledore could also be resistant to such attacks. However if surprised and not able to put up a shield in time (as in the case of being targeted by a sniper), well said wizards should at least be physically hit and possibly damaged.

I suppose enchanted items could provide protection, however they would need to be either really powerful or numerous to be effective.

I would conclude by saying we can only really use logic to make such guesses.

Perhaps someone who has really studied the cannon would be best to consult on it if not going directly to the source material. Not that anyone should bother, eh it is all fantasy and such anyways, who really cares? Other than it being fun to speculate and discuss.

 

There was no bait. America is the sole superpower in the world.

They'd be the best at magic too. There's an overlapping of muggle/magic simply by the Grindelwald thing in 1945 -- it's obvious Rowling's intention. That magic is simply a sugar coating to the story told. That of choices versus easy way, light versus dark, love versus hate, etc, ad nauseum. Magic is merely an enhancer, a way to draw people in. To be blunt, to sucker people into buying the story.

And if its simply sugar, the US's would be sweeter. There's no baiting here; there's only a bait if you're offended by America being number one. People come to America to take knowledge back to their backwards societies (not England precisely but you get my drift), come to America to escape their problems because there's freedom and opportunity and come to America because people keep trying to find a better place than wherever it is they're are.

That's something that's happened for ages. Moving eastward or westward, so long as it's away from where they are and relatively unexplored.

America is the better place to be although I imagine New Zealand is quiet.

 

I am really confused as to why people like to have magical America mirror muggle America.

I've always liked to think that there is not united magical US, rather that it is split into many different factions.

It is also possible that while the Native peoples of the Americas died of, their magical relatives lived on. Before the Spanish invations--which may have killed off as many as 96% or the population with biological warfare tactics--the Americas were made up of heavily populated agrocultural nations with bronze age level technolgy. The leaves potential for the magical peoples (who I think we all agree have better immune systems) to still be around in their own cities.

Now, understandable, these witches and wizards would loathe the European invaders. After centuries of fighting these Pureblooded natives would have come to an uneasy truce with the "Europeans." While the mostly white governments are realitivly opened minded toward muggleborns (depending on where you are, some are conservative, so are liberal), they are always uneasy as the war with the Natives go be recindaled at any time.

 

I think there could probably be two facets to American Magic. Maybe ther's a middle ground but it's too foggy in my mind to flesh out right now.

1. No one knows about magic in America. It's completely top secret, and wizards are taken away from their parents as soon as they show signs of magic and put into camps for intensive training for battle and war tactics, to be released as battle-mages on reaching majority into the Army services as a weapon to use against opposing armies. Few escape this process, and those who do start their own underground community rather like vampires.

2. Pretty much everyone knows about it and really don't care. Magic is like the ninth natural human capacity (I don't know exactly what it's called, only that there was a book citing eight natural human somethings), and those who are wizards are just regular people with a special talent who do shit much easier and have different ways to hurt people, rather like double-jointed people or those who know martial artists, but on a much larger scale. It's just one of those talents that some people a born with. A Sugar Coating like Bio said. Magical schools have the more important muggle subjects alongside of the magical aspects like math and science and maybe English.

I really can't see which one is more likely.

 

I don't understand why you seem to think that the magical people would be taught muggle subjects. They don't need them on the whole. Magic provides you with the ability to do damn near anything you want. If, and its a big if, you would happen to want to leave the magical world later on in life, and find you can't do shit without qualifications, go get them yourself, night school/college whatever. The majority of people will not need them, thus they will not be taught.

And, no offence intended to Americans here, everyone in America knew about magic, don't you think that there might be a slight, ever so very very slight, bit of discontent amongst the fervent Christians of your country, oh wait, sorry I forgot, from what the majority of the world sees, thats most of your population and nearly the whole of your government. How would the US government as it is today react to the existence of magic. I think they would declare war on a new breed of terrorists. What would Bush do if he found someone casting spells in his back garden...shoot them for not being Christian.

The bible states "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", so the more fervent Christians would no doubt feel obliged to hunt them down, and since nearly everyone is allowed to own weapons...

I like the first idea you suggested Afro, with the kidnappings and training though. It could make for an interesting story.

Another good portrayal I've seen of magical America is in Dr T's newest fic, which I can't link you to just now because ficwad has deleted all their fics temporarily. It shows magical America to be made up Old Colonials, who are basically the Old Bloods, Purebloods, who are just that, pureblooded wizards fairly new from Europe and Old Believers, who believe in the old religions of the Welsh celtic tribes. With of course the odd scattering of muggle borns. The Old Believers are shown as a highly insular society who are strict in their beliefs and some sects forbid contact with anyone who isn't a believer, and others with anyone who isn't magical. Its an interesting set up, and is actually put forward in a fairly believable way.

 

Well, first off, I was implying a magical community in America that works closely with the muggle side, so some knowledge of science and math might be useful. Secondly, the Bible is talking about the kind of sorcery that involves selling away your soul to the devil or gaining powers through some unnatural means. Rowling made a smart move when she made magic something that a person is born with, because any Christian who isn't a moron knows that someone is born the way God intended them to be. So to be born with magic means that there's nothing you could have done about it. Chances are anyone moronic enough to discriminate against a wizard would be flamed mercilessly by everyone with any common sense. Magic would, like I said, be seen as just a talent that people are born with.

 

I always figured that the magical people who came to America from Europe were muggleborns that wanted to get away from the bigotry of Purebloods.

The muggleborns that came to America would resent European purebloods. That resentment would be passed down to their children and grandchildren, etc. Any Pureblood witch or wizard that came to America would be shunned by the large muggleborn society just as their ancestors were shunned by the Purebloods.

I think it would be interesting to see an America that has a hatred for any witch or wizard that calls themselved Purebloods.

Not only that, but the Native Americans would have a large impact on a magical society in America. There type of magic would no doubt be different from European magic. Native Americans were known to do stuff like Rain Dances, have a special affinity with animals, etc. I always thought of Indians in an American Magical society as being masters of Elemental magiks and anything to do with animals, especially the Animagus transformation. I don't see early Indians using wands so most of their magic would be done through rituals, music, dances, chanting, etc.

I never pictured how the acutal look of the society would be. But if the magical world in America was full of muggleborns I would think that it would be more modern. Not things like Physics, or other muggle subjects, but more of the look of things like paved streets, housing developments, maybe some buildings made of steel, etc.