I'll try.

Gay vampires sucking... we know what state of mind Immolo was in when he typed this, eh?

Immolo here states his opinion on the superiority of the combat aspects of WoT magic compared to HP magic. As we journey deeper into the post, we'll see a few of the well-researched facts that support his conclusion.

Proof number 1: HP wizards can't apparate in battle unless they are Super!Wizards. This proof fails because there's no proof of it (and Dumbledore kinda apparated in battle).

Here Immolo fails to say why a HP wizard could not read a channeler's mind. He does this by ignoring silent casting, postulating that a 'Protego' cannot and will not block 'most' weaves (one would think that if it can't block most, it wouldn't block any - perhaps he's willing to have it only block those that wouldn't get used in a fight), and postulating that HP wizards need to be ballerinas to survive their duels. Poor Dumbledore.

Immolo says that a magical shield will stop the Killing Curse. I would actually agree that WoTimers could block this Curse, but for thought-out reasons Immolo probably does not share.

Here he says something is impossible, then demonstrates how it is possible.

End Translation.

My opinion is that the high end abilities discussed in WoT eclipse the high-end shown in HP (cracking continents, etc.) However, if Big D or whoever started this thread is actually serious about writing, I could definitely come up with ideas on how the magic systems could interact to form a general equality, enough to write a story at least. (Although Harry will never be cracking continents).

 

That would be a modified quote from Xplay.

Yah but no other wizard ever apparated in battle even when it would obviously have helped them. Dumbledore is a super wizard just like Voldemort.

I did not say the channelers minds couldn't be read. I said that it wouldn't matter since channelers have a faster thought process and could easily kill a wizard not matter what.

I should have explained the protego one better. Protego is a linear shield blocking only one direction. Most weaves can go around it. Protego might be able to block a weave that hits it directly but most weaves don't need to. Such as a blade of air cutting the wizards body in half or the Asha'man's favorite body explosion.

I actually did share why it was blocked. Avada Kedavra is blocked by things that are solid like the statues from OoP. The shield of air is solid air and thus is a solid object. Hence it can block avada kadavra.



Here he says something is impossible, then demonstrates how it is possible.

Some retard had said earlier that people could see the opposite genders channeling. They cannot see it. He also acted like this would help Harry. The females do have a new weave to allow them to see saidin but that wouldn't exactly help Harry now would it.

 

Have we ever seen a duel in a location where apparation is possible? Hogwarts, the Ministry...

Spells can be cast in battle. Apparation is a spell. Apparation can be done in battle. Wand movement (for the less skilled) = turning. Incantation (silent) = location you want to go to. Spell = Apparating. Not that difficult.

The deck is stacked against you: Possible Combat Apparation 1, Not-Possible 0. It's up to you to provide reasonable proof that Apparation is so hard trained wizards cannot do it while dueling.

I dispute this. There's the time it takes to embrace the One Power, the time it takes to weave the spell - while the wizard merely has to think the spell and it happens. Not an insurmountable difference.

If you say the channeler could weave in secret, while the wizard would give himself away by the presence of a wand/wand movement: see below.

What? Fanon is where you get horribly detailed descriptions of the slightly azure semi-circle of semi-transparent magic that is attatched to Harry's wand and needs to be swiveled about to catch the incoming spells. Canon, Protego is the shield spell. It shields you. I have multiple, independent proofs that the Shield spell can and does stop non-visible spells, including OotP when Harry blocks Snape's Legilimancy, and in the same book when he stops Bellatrix from summoning the prophecy sphere from his hand. Read those pages - no description that there was a physical shield Harry had to maneuver between him and his enemy, merely that the shield spell... shielded him! Amazing!

The shield of air is solid? Leaving that aside, I'll discuss my views about WoTers blocking the Killing Curse.

HP magic has several rules. One of them is that you cannot bring the dead back to life: a wizard cannot say (paraphrased by a spell, for example), "Be alive!" To block an unfriendly spell requires being able to countermand that spell. For instance, to block the Stunning spell, a wizard must be able to say (through his shield), "do not be Stunned." That also explains why countercurses are so much more effective than shields. The shield needs to figure out what the spell it is blocking is, and come up with the inverse. A countercurse, though, already knows what it needs to do and so does it more... not efficiently, but elegantly.

So when a wizard attempts to block the Killing Curse, it is impossible, because his shield does not have the 'authority' (to borrow a concept from Taure) to contradict the "be dead" of Avada Kedavra with its own "don't be dead." [The Resurrection Stone opperates around a technicality, but it's name is misleading - it does not bring people back to life. It should be called the Dead Hotline Stone.]

Therefore, if the One Power can bring people back to life, then it can block the Killing Curse magically. If not, then logically it can't. I am not well-versed enough in WoT to say which it is.

Here I will discuss detecting the One Power. This isn't really part of my discussion with Immolo, but speculation for whoever wants to write this fic.

In HP, it is possible for trained wizards to detect magic close by them. This is taken from HBP, where Dumbledore detects the doorway in the rock and the hidden chain. First assumption needed: it is possible to do this at least basically without needing huge amounts of training. I believe its a forgivable assumption, because it seems like a technique that would be a valuable part of a wizard's skills, and it'll will allow the story to be written.

Second Assumption: when dealing with hostile/harmfull magic (as opposed to the purposefully hidden magic of Voldemort's cave) the range of detection is greater. The magnitude of the spell would also matter when determining range.

Here's how I would write it. Harry already has achieved adeptness at this spell in his universe. When he comes over (however) and meets a channeler (female or male) he feels him/her through this 'sense' but it does not feel like anything he has had experience with before. He notices s/he feels different at some times (when holding saidar/saidin, although he wouldn't know it yet) and even more different when they perform 'spells' (channeling). Then he meets a channeler of the opposite gender, and that person's whole feel is different (and also has differences between holding, not holding, channeling). A significant part of the early conflict could be him learning to tell apart the different sensations quickly enough to be usefull.

---------------------

On another topic: shielding channelers. That could be an ability you give Harry to balance out WoTer's greater 'explosivity.' This would give you (the author) the possibility of showing Harry's talent by having him create his own spell - something most readers are conditioned to think is hard - without having to resort to a fighting scene. This would be where you break with mainstream fanficiton - by having a resourcefull Harry who is resourcefull in more areas than the quantity of firepower he has. In fact, this whole story would need to have Harry be resourcefull in other ways than that, because in the end he's just not going to be able to match the sheer continent-busting mountain-creating that the most bulked-up channelers can.

Final, final note: Have I been spelling 'Channelers' right?

 

Men can sense when women are channeling, but apparently women can't sense men who are channeling. My guess is that Lanfear was a hell of a lot more experienced with men who channeled, which is why she was able to slice Rand's weave. Anyway, I haven't read the books in a while, so I may have missed something.

Off-topic: I wish I could go into the Wheel Of Time universe so I could bang some of those hawt women.

 

This one Narf.

@Nefar You do know the part where Dumbles apparated in combat was in the ministry.

 

Dumbledore apparated inside the ministry. THe buck is now yours.



I dispute this. There's the time it takes to embrace the One Power, the time it takes to weave the spell - while the wizard merely has to think the spell and it happens. Not an insurmountable difference.

If you say the channeler could weave in secret, while the wizard would give himself away by the presence of a wand/wand movement: see below.

In all those instances Harry pointed his wand at the person casting the spell. Besides I never said it couldn't block invisible things.

You are an IDIOT.

A SHIELD OF FUCKING AIRT IS JUST AS SOLID AS A FUCKING STATUE! A SHIELD OF AIR CAN"T DIE! If the physical spell does not reach the target they don't die. Note Harry has dodged Avada Kedavra and by your logic his dodging would have to be able to bring back the dead to stop it. Oh and that staue in OoP would have to be able to bring back people to life.

I used see when he said they must be able to sense the weave's general area/size woopyfuckingdo.

 

Actually the Tower supposedly have some Sa'angreal themselves. They used one to heal Mat from the infection from the SL dagger. I don't think its quite as strong as Callandor and the statues however. In any case, I think Angreal would only come into play in more special cases. The average Channelers generally dont have any. And Sa'angreal would only come in to play in extreme situations. Though I suppose if such an exteme situation were to occur a channeler would obviously crush a wizard with ease.

I was under the impression that legilimency was a very uncommon skill for a wizard to know, not something the average wizard would be capable off. Also I wonder if the altered mental state that embracing the power causes would offer protection from mind reading. For example, I seem to remember that in OotP Snape says that in order to hide from legilimency probes its necessary to clear your mind of emotion. The Void thing male channelers use does exactly that for instance.

I understand that when apparating you must be extremely focused to be able to bring all of your body to the new location. So if you are tired or distracted or such you might accidently splinch. I would say this slightly limits the ability to utilise this in heated battle. Obviously the truly skilled can do this (And infact Voldemort and Dumbledore do).

I maintain however that the "pop" that accompanies apparition would allow a channeler to "hone in" on the new location of the channeler and instantly direct their attack to that location, limiting the effectiveness of apparition as a tool of evasion. I have the latest book in html (*Cough* ) and I searched for apparition and it says there that when a wizard appears there is a slight popping sound. Holding the power massively enhances the senses of the channeler so I would argue that such a channeler can hear the direction and arguably the distance of the wizards new location.

As for apparating without turning, I dont think its as easy as you suggest. I think Dumbledore and Voldemort do it so we know its possible. But in book6 even the instructor who teaches apparition (and could be assumed to be an expert) needs to turn. This suggests that it requires a level of mastery that an average wizard does not possess.

I am not exactly sure where you get the idea that the killing curses unblockability comes from inability to raise the dead. Is there actually any support to this?

In any event, I am not sure I entirely believe that a shield of air could block the killing curse. I can see where the idea comes from though.

The killing curse can be blocked if a solid object is brought into the path of the spell. In OotP Dumbledore shields Harry by having the statue jump onto the path of the spell and it merely bounces off.

We know that Shields of air feel like solid objects. For instance, in one of the books Lanfear creates a shield of air to prevent Rand from reaching Callandor and we have a line where he hits the shield with his fist and thinks its as solid as any real wall would be. I suppose whether that would be sufficient to block a killing curse depends on how that solidity is achieved. Is it actually solid in reality and to sufficient degree to register as one to the killing curse, or is it just a weave that the curse could penetrate/bypass.

In any event I would say that a channeler could easily defend himself against a killing curse by using a weave of air to move a solid object infront of the curse. It should be easy to pick any object or other piece of debris lying around with a weave of air and intersect the curse with that. Naturally however this would require that the channelers knows what the killing curse is and how it can be blocked so this probably would not happen if the channeler has never encountered a wizard before (Unless the channeler is really clever),

Not sure I would support this kind of idea actually. It feels somewhat contrived that a wielder of an entirely different system of magic (HP) could somehow sense channeling better than actual channelers. I mean male channelers cannot sense female channeling (except the goosebump thing) and they actually wield what is essentially a part of the same power! And ofcourse female channelers sense nothing at all (except with the special weave).

The idea that Harry who wields a power completely unrelated to WoT system could sense channeling or suddenly come up with some spell to detect how a completely alien (to him) system works feels a bit silly to me. The same applies to the sudden idea that Harry could shield channelers with spells.

This is exactly why I have the vague idea that there must be some obscure way of knowing when an offensive weave is coming towards you and its location. Though this may be something only the truly skilled know.

We know from the Dumais wells scene that the clubs of air that Rand weaves cannot be seen with the naked eye. In the scene the Aes Sedai are being attacked and they have created a powerfull shield that surrounds the area in a sort of bubble. They are focused on the attackers (Wise Ones I believe) and are generally looking to their direction outside of the bubble.

During this attack, Rand (with LTT's help) breaks free from the shield the Aes Sedai have on him and stills the sisters. This happens somewhere in the middle of the bubble (so Rand is inside the shield of the Aes Sedai). Rand then proceeds to start weaving clubs of air and knocking the Aes Sedai maintaining the bobble unconscious one by one. The Aes Sedai have no idea what is happening. There is apparently no visual sign of what Rand is doing, and they do not detect his channeling in any way. Instead they assume that it must be something the Wise Ones outside their shield are doing.

Compare that with the Lanfear scene. Rand weaves a club of air just like he does in the Dumais well scene. We know from that scene that such weaves of air are invisible to the human eye. We also know that Lanfear as a female cannot sense the channeling of a man. And yet somehow, Lanfear knows EXACTLY where to slice to cut Rands weave and defend herself. How could she possibly have known that Rand had even woven an attack let alone the exact nature and location of the attacking weave without some way to sense the attack coming. And since we know that females cannot sense the actual channeling, it must be some other sensing ability. Unless ofcourse someone has a better explanation for this?

In any case, Rand does this too as I mentioned earlier. He cuts attacks from Lanfear and Aes Sedai and such so he too has the same strange ability to know where female weaves are. The male ability to sense female channeling cannot be responsible for this, since it only allows him to know that saidar is being used since it causes him goosebumps. The ability does not tell him who is channeling or what is being channeled or where the weaves are located. So how does Rand know where to cut female weaves? What else could it be but some strange sensing ability that is separate from actually sensing Saidar?

 

He could have been guessing. Afterall he does have incredible luck.

 

Inside the Atrium. You know, the place where wizards are always appearing and disappearing.

Am I the only one who finds this hilarious?

Heavy debris does indeed stop the Killing Curse. Something established in OotP.

How do you get from 'happened to be pointing towards them' to 'must be pointing towards them.' Listen: we know the Protego can adapt to fit the requirements of the situation, from DH when Harry uses it to make a barrier between Ron and Hermione. The Protego shields where it needs to shield - this is Canon.

It's Greek to me.

--------------------------------
The Datakim Section
At last... intelligence.​

Only in some situations. If Harry (or Wizard Nameless) were standing within sight of the channeler, then yes. If they were behind an enchantment like the Fidelius, no. And lets hope the wizard doesn't think to Apparate.

You are right, the impression JKR gives us is that it is a less common skill. But remember this is not yet a completely WoT vs. HP thread - its an idea for a fic, so presumably Harry would be talented enough to know the mind magics.

I have no idea. That's something that the author would have to decide. For future reference, what is the connection Aes Sedai make with saidar like? No emotion, more emotion? Also, do male channelers experience no emotion?

Why must you be extremely focused. Remember, Apparation is merely a specific form of a spell. There would be a danger of unpracticed people splinching, yes, but like with ordinary spells, practice (every day, to-from work, etc) makes perfect.

So they have Superman-esque earing. Do they also gain his ability to filter out unneccessary noise (and to quickly decide what noise is unneccessary and what is not)? Because otherwise and easy way around this ability is to cast a loud noisemaker on the ground before Apparating.

I don't think there's evidence either way. The instructor example can easily be discounted because he was showing his students (people with no experience whatsoever) how they would do it at first.

It makes sense canonically (I think), and explains things pretty well, but if you don't like it, that's fine. It's not a big point.

First let me say I understand what Immolo meant by 'Shield of Air,' it just was extremely lulzy to see him rave about how it "CAN"T DIE!"

To Datakim, the shield of air's ability to block would depend on whether it was a completely magic shield or whether it basically 'conjured' the equivalent of a wall of brick. For the moving a heavy object in front of the spell, I would say that would work, but only at a distance (because of the time factor).

It seems to me like a matter of degree. You don't have a problem with the different magic systems interacting in, say, the Shield spell against a weave, but you do with the more ethereal aspects. And it makes sense that someone outside of a magic system completely yet with his own magic would feel that system differently than someone inside it.

Note that I am not defending the canonicity of either of the two assumption I made to the proven detection ability. Those were just to make the crossover go more smoothly. Datakim, if your goal was to allow practitioners of the two systems to fight in relative equality to facilitate a story, what relatively plausible thing would you do?

We must journey beyond the sillyness of discussing how two magic systems would interact to reach the best possible story.

.

Well, if Harry could Stun a channeler, why couldn't he shield them? If he can lay one type of spell on them and have it affect them, why not the another? After developing the skill over time, of course.

 

You don't really know anything about Wheel of Time do you? You shouldn't even be arguing about it if you don't know basic facts.

Desides you say there is canon evidence that it automaticallly protects but EVERY single example has the person turned towards them. None of the spell cast had area of effect damage or anything like that.

The reason I ranted was your argument was so retarded I couldn't help but want to kill you. The statue still doesn't have the ability to resurect people neither does Harry's dodging have that ability but they can still stop/avoid Avada Kedavra.

 

I don't think Fidelius comes into play in combat which I was referring to.

How does Fidelius work anyway? Does it just confuse human minds? So for instance if a channeler were to know that a wizard is hiding under fidelius "somewhere in the area" could he/she use a sa'angreal to create a wave of massive destruction that would annihilate everything in 360 degree radius.

That might also be used to counter apparition, does not matter if the wizard is apparating around if everyplace around the channeler is a raging inferno of destruction.

Though that kind of "destroy everything everywhere" technique would only work for the bad guys or in desolated areas. Good guys would not be willing to destroy entire areas/cities just to kill a single wizard.

True, though he does not know such magics in canon.

Also we do know that most weaves are woven at great speed. So even if this would work, a wizard would only have split second or so to act to counter what he saw in the channelers mind.

I think only male channelers enter the state of emotionless though I am not 100% sure so don't take my word for it.

The books have described Rand's point of view more so I can tell you how males do it. Apparently they sort of enter a state where they feed all their emotions into a fire (or other such focus) essentially creating a "void" that is void(hence the name) of emotions.

So for instance there are scenes where Rand when confronted with something that would make him angry says that he can feel anger skittering outside the void but it cannot reach him inside the void. So I guess so long as a channeler could maintain that state they would either feel no emotion, or at the very least be utterly separated from its influence. Interestingly this also applies to other sensations aswell. Rand can actually ignore physical pain in the void. In the Dumais well scene which I just read a while back it is described as though he is aware of the pain, but feels as though it is a pain of someone else.

I suppose thats true. I guess I got an increased sense of danger for this because most failed spells dont cause you to lose your limbs.

I don't know how much concentration is required for apparition. The lexicon describes it as needing "determination" (whatever that means) and as being very difficult. I guess I just figured that being in a combat situation might be distracting enough to make apparition risky, for the average wizard anyway.

I am not entirely sure to be honest. There are scenes where channelers embrace the source in order to eavesdrop on the conversations of other people that they could not normally hear. I suppose that might imply that they could focus on just that conversation while ignoring other distracting sounds but I am not entirely certain. Would have to check those scenes more carefully.

In any event, the wizard would have to know that the channeler has superiour senses and that he is using them to locate him before he would know to create loud sounds.

Hmm. Good point.

True. We don't know how a shield of air works so its really impossible to say.

As for moving objects, I would say that a skilled channeler can do it as fast as Dumbledore did to shield Harry with the statue. Though obviously that would depend on many factors such as the distance of the wizard and the locations of any usefull debris and such.

True. I suppose its just the idea of Harry conveniently gaining an ability to detect channeling better than channelers themselves that feels a bit iffy. Personally I would prefer some other way such as him finding a ter'angreal that detects channeling or something. We know those exist and could work for Harry.

Essentially I don't like the idea of Magic and Channeling mixing completely or coming from the same source. It is easier to see the actual effects (such as spells, woven effects) being countered than it is for the energy itself. So for instance I would not like it if a channeler could create a shield around Harry that would prevent magic from entering, but I have no problems for such a shield to block actual casted spells.

Perhaps its a strange distinction but it does kinda make sense to me personally. Hopefully you understood my meaning.

Mainly because a stunning spell would probably strike at the body or brain whereas the connection a channeler has to the one power is somewhat more "spiritual". I suppose I feel it iffy for one magic system to affect the other in this kind of deep and basic level. For the same reason I would not believe that channelers could strip away magic from Harry.

 

Wow, i'm surprise someone saw my little tiny post in the huge wall of text replies that have become rather normal in this thread.

For the mind reading thing, would the void that male channelers go into (and then weave in) in fact make it easier for them to see what was being weaved. Fanon aside (I think it is fanon...), where the mind is not like a book and can't be read; wouldn't they still get the impression of what was being weaved? If so couldn't they dodge it in some way or defend against it.

And yes, I did find it kind of funny that Immlo thinks no wizard would have thought of casting a spell that caused a wall of air to form since AK's creation. I think it'd go right through such a shield.

 

I haven't read the other pages, because I'm not interested in a magic/channeling debate. To make a WoT crossover workable, Harry could be capable of wielding Saidin in fine amounts. Only through the use of a powerful Angreal, or a Sa'Angreal should he be able to match Rand in sheer power, because he would ideally still have his magic.

Coincidentally, this gave me a little plot bunny, and will result in a story, once I have a chance to work on it.