Does anyone have any thoughts on why Dumbledore and the others never trained Harry in the art of dueling or battle magic? I ask this for two reasons, one because I'm curious and haven't read HBP (from what I've heard he didn't tutor Harry in that one either except give him info on Voldemort), secondly because I'm going to need a reason for the fic I'm writing. I personally can't come up with a good reason given Harry's importance in the fight against Voldemort and in my fic, Dumbledore is going to have to explain himself. And we all know Dumbledore can't be so busy that he can't personally tutor Harry or at least find someone to do so.

 

I always thought it was because Dumbledore had so much faith in the love concept, that he just didn't want Harry to become cocky in thinking that his skills in various forms of magic was what would be stopping Voldemort.

 

Yeah same here, there really is no good reason not to train him, even if only in defence.

Another thing that bugs me is that Dumbledore never got good defence trainers (save Lupin and Moody, probably Snape) even though he knew that 'the Chosen One' would be in school and needed good defence training above anything else

 

Well, Quirrel was a defense teacher before Harry's year, and I am guessing before he met Voldemort he was atleast decent in his teachings. Gilderoy was rumored to be one of the best dark creature fighters around, if Dumbledore knew what was really going on, I think he would put a stop to it. Plus. Dumbledore trusts that these people know what they are talking about...for they say that they know what they are talking about, and Dumbledore is very trusting. After the year started, and it was proved that they were quite incompetant, there is not much they can do.

 

That really doesn't piss me off as much as the fact in HBP harry is known as "the Chosen one" it kinda ruins the whole keep the prophecy secret thing.

No training took place same reason harry becomes romanticly active with gin-gin....because J.K. Rowling is fucking stupid and is going to feed harry everything on a silver platter in book 7.

 

I think that he was unable to find the "Power the Dark Lord knows not" and was waiting for it to manifest in the fight against Voldemort, and feared that any magical training would hamper the aforementioned ability's manifestation.

*shrugs*

That's the only reasonable explanation that I came up with. Another was the JKR is a pacifist and believes that "Good will always triumph over Evil!" and all that shit.

 

If you're talking about canon, then let's face the hard truth: Dumbledore hasn't trained Harry because the boy is just an average shmock; he's not powerful or intelligent enough to grasp 1% of the spells Voldemort knows. Trying to bring him up to Voldemort's level would have just frustrated Harry, while like this, the idiot thinks he still has a fair shot.

 

i Think that in the next book, Harry will have a lot of knowledge of spells and such and when Hermione or Ron ask him about it he will explain that Dumbeldore actually taught it to him during their sessions. So basically Dumbeldore in Rowlings way taught harry but she never actually wrote it down. or she may just say he used a timer turner.
i hope that made sense...

 

Frankly canon-wise there really isn't a good reason. The only thing that makes sense is that he's putting all his faith in the whole power-he-knows-not randomly manifesting and saving the day, be it love or not (he's not exactly tried to help Harry harness the power of love, so what the Power actually is doesn't really matter in this. That said, Dumbledore's reason is probably the same as why he sent him to the Dursleys, and why he didn't tell Harry the prophecy in his first year; he wanted him to have a 'normal' childhood (I'm gonna quote the slightly skewed recaps on this: "Good job, idiot!").

 

that makes sense...but its highly unlikely. If she had anything to make HBP slightly decent, I think she would have put it in.

 

Dumbledore thought he was going to be there to help Harry. IP are we reading the same stories? Harry according to the sorting Hat has the ability to be great at magic not to mention the fact that in his third year of schooling he preformed a spell that most adult wizards cannot preform. Then there is the fact that he is supposedly very gifted at DADA and we really don't know how much Harry really knows. There is also the hbp's book. Harry didn't have any problems learning spells from that book. Harry just doesn't apply himself to school because of Ron. I mean look at it this way Hermione studies all the time and Harry a guy who never studies is at the top of his class in DADA because that is the only class he tries in and even then he doesn't try nearly as hard as Hermione does.

Other than that I had an idea for a fanfic where Albus gets his final revenge on Tom by transferring all of his memories to Harry through the magic of love when he died.

 

No, ip is right, Harry is barely able to grasp NEWT level spells and can't even do non-verbal magic. His OWL scores were mediocre, and although he may have had the potential to be a good wizard in first year, he has now squandered that chance.

As for the Patronus, and the fact that it's a charm that "most adult wizards can't perform", the whole of the DA was performing it in 5th year, so Lupin was obviously being misleading to Harry, probably to try to help him learn it quicker.

If Harry can't do the magic that Hogwarts has to teach, what's the point in trying to teach him stuff that is even more advanced?

 

Hat said to him he can be great wizard the same way everyone tells him how great wizards were his parents. Of course that hadn't helped them much against a prodigy like Voldemort. Besides, this was done before the 4th book, where the whole idea of the prophecy and war starts from.

As for Patronius, it's obvious that this is the Power of Love Dumbledore was talking about. That's the only advanced spell Harry can perform and it just happens to be fueled by happy memories.

And Harry is just above average at DADA. He's not a prodigy in any sense of that word.

 

First of all, Harry does do non-verbal magic in both his duel with Malfoy and when he's following Snape. Snape blocks it before he finishes casting, but against Malfoy it just missed, I believe.

Yes, his OWL scores are mediocre, but he is supposed to be the best DADA student at school, just like James was great at Transfiguration and Lily at Charms. Dumbledore was a Transfiguration master and did a ton of transfiguration in his duel with Voldemort, so I don't see anything wrong with being excellent in one subject and not as good in others.

And no, the whole DA didn't manage to perform the Patronus, with the exception of Harry, only Cho and Hermione managed it, so your theory goes out the window. Not to mention the fact that Harry learned it in his third year while practacing Dementors, and managed to create one powerful enough to drive off a hundred dementors.

The sorting hat said something to the effect of "And there's talent, oh my goodness, yes." While Mr. Ollivander mentioned not only that Harry's wand was very powerful, but that "I believe we can expect great things from you, Mr. Potter"

Harry being generally average in canon is a new development, something that didn't happen 'till 5th and 6th year. In third year he managed an extremely advanced charm, in fourth year he managed to throw off the Imperius Curse, something many full grown wizards, including both Barty Crouch, the former head of Law enforcement, and Barty Crouch Jr (A wizard powerful/clever enough to subdue Mad Eye Moody and fool Dumbledore for an entire year) can't do.

 

Actually, Harry only casts one spell against Malfoy in his duel with him (Sectumsempra) and he bellows it out. The spells he used against Snape that Snape blocked are specifically designed with non-verbal casting in mind, so they're easier than casting normal spells non-verbally.

I do. Although there's nothing wrong with excelling in one subject over the others, I doubt that those people that you mentioned are as poor as Harry is at their subjects that aren't their best.

As for James being great at Transfiguration and Lily being great at Charms, that's just the inclinations of their wands, we don't know if it's the same for the people. In fact, we know that Lily was best at Potions. So the idea that their wands deciding what subjects they're best at doesn't work there.

Add on to this fact that Harry isn't really all that great at DADA. He's the best in the year yes (although not anymore in HBP as he can't even manage the basics of the NEWT course), but his year is a rather poor one. An example of a person who is truely good at DADA would be Snape, who was creating duelling spells in his Sixth year, or James Potter, who could do non verbal magic in his 5th.

I don't know if your version of OotP was different to mine, but I distinctly remember Dean managing a Patronus as well (something hairy). He never struck me as a particularly talented wizard. Neville and Parvati were both close to succeeding. In an interview JKR has told us the form of Ron's patronus, which means that he managed it as well.

1. The idea that it was 100 Dementors is never stated in the book, it simply says that there was alot of them (unless of course the American version is different).

2. Two years later at the beginning of OotP Harry struggled to repel 2 Dementors. Clearly the patronus he conjoured at the end of POA was a one of a kind, influenced by the fact that he had time traveled, and therefore knew that he would succeed.

Those all say that harry had the potential to be great at the age of 11. Alot has changed since then, and it's a bit late for Harry to suddenly show a massive increase in his magical ability.

As for the great things that Ollivander mentioned, it doesn't neccessarily mean that Harry himself will be great. After all, defeating Voldemort in PS was a great thing, and yet all Harry had to do was stand there and let the blood protection he had do it's work. it required no skill from him.

Harry has been average in canon since year one. He was unable to answer Snape's questions in Potions, which were possible to answer, shown by the fact that Hermione knew. He got middleing grades at the end of the year, and I think at the end of PS he knew a grand total of 4 spells. Not exactly great is it?

As for throwing off the Imperius curse, although it is impressive it required no magical ability nor strength of mind, just extreme stubboness. We have since seen through Harry's inability to learn Occlumency and non-verbal skills that his strength of mind is rather weak.

 

Err... Based on my books you're pretty much completely wrong in everything. The duel with Malfoy clearly has Harry flicking his wand and thinking Levicorpus, Cho had a swan and Hermione had an otter as Patronus', no one elses was effective enough to take a shape. Harry struggled against two Dementors, yes, but he was just punched in the face and dropped his wand, and was almost immediately assaulted with memories, anyone would be in bad shape at first. And despite you saying throwing off the Imperius curse is just "extreme stubborness", I think you're pretty much completely wrong. Crouch was clearly a stubborn anal retentive character, and he couldn't throw it off. The Imperius is willlpower, imo. Which is essentially what canon magic is, based on the fact that wizards can do silent magic and don't need incantations.

Basically, Harry was a powerful kid in books 1-4 where it counts. And in books 5 and 6 he was completely average. At least, that's how I feel.

 

*sigh*

Here we go again.

"Harry, I think I'm doing it!" yelled Seamus, who had been brought along to his first ever DA meeting my Dean. "Look - ah - its's gone...but it was definatly something hairy, Harry!" From chapter The Centaur and the Sneak, OotP p535 hardback British edition.

Clearly, if he was able to tell it was hairy then it had a shape.

Add on to that the fact that JKR has mentioned in an interview that Ron can do it too.

Throwing off the Imperius certainly isn't willpower, as willpower is what is required to perform Occlumency and non verbal magic, which Harry can't do. From what is going on in Harry's head when he is under the Imperius, we can conclude that the reason why he can resist it is because he doesn't like being told what to do i.e. stubboness.

Wizards do need incantations in canon magic, I think you'll find. Just because the incantation is said in your head, doesn't make it any less of an incantation.

I'll admit, I forgot about him doing that spell, but the arguement from my previous post about Levicorpus being easier than other spells to do non-verbally remains. If he had done, say, Expelliarmus non-verbally, then that would have been more impressive, but he did a spell specifically designed to be non-verbal, which is no doubt easier.

 

You have to remember though, Hermione loves to read. She learnt her books off by heart, of course seh'd know the answer.

Do we? All I remember reading is that Lily was brilliant. Brillaint and the best are 2 different things. We have never been told that James was best at Transfiguartion, that's just fanon.

Taure the reason that Cho was able to do it is because she is older, and therefore has more expeirence with magic. Hermione can do it for the reason I mentioned above. She is obessed with learning. Also, just because JKR said told us Ron's form, it doesn't mean he was able to cast it at that time.

Also how would a spell designed specially designed for non-veral incantations be easier to do non-verbaly? It would take a different form of magic from usual. And as they aren't used to it, it would be harder.

And also, Occlumency isn't will power, imo. Harry is told to clear his mind. It doesn't take much willpower to do that.

 

That's the point I'm trying to make. If Harry was as good a wizard as he should be, then he would have read the books too.

That was the idea lol. I was prooving that Lily was skilled in more than just one subject, unlike Harry. And yes, James being good at transfiguration is just fanon, which is what I said.

Canon proof that older means better at magic? In fact, I believe that it says that when Snape was in first year he knew more about the Dark Arts than most seventh years.

True, but it's likely. And even without that, what about Seamus' form?

Usually when something is desinged for a specific purpose, it is better for that purpose than other, more general things.

Canon proof: Harry was able to do the Levicorpus spell first time, and yet it says many times during the rest of HBP that "Harry was still struggleing with hes non verbal spells".

Have you ever tried to clear your mind? I have, and it's not an easy task. Also, in HBP when Snape says that non verbal spells require a certain focus (or strength of mind) that some people lack, Harry knows that Snape is refering to the fact that he was unable to learn Occlumency, so this shows that Occlumency is focus. Focus is another way of saying strength of mind, which is another way of saying willpower.