I guess you're going with the knowledge is power route. You don't have to read a lot to be powerful. For all we know Hermione could just be a weak witch who is only powerful because she knows a wider variety of magic than Harry because she reads.

You have to remember, she could have been terrible at other subjects which hasn't been told in canon. About you saying that James being good at Transfiguration in fanon before hand. I only have one reply. <--- Me

Their isn't much evidence but remember how powerful Dumbledore is. He could have started off an average-powered wizard, but with age his magic grew. I mean, have they met anyone else to deny that? Not many peope will be able to remember over 50 years I think, nevermind 100.

We have no idea about the formation of Patroni. For all we know, it could still have been a mist, and the texture could develop before the shape.

Good point, I think you have me beaten there. However, we must remember that Harry did moderatly well without Snape present at his Potions OWLs test.
So it is likely that in the presence of Snape, and remembering his biting remarks, that he wasn't able to focus properly.

Does keep on saying 'Nothing' in your mind count? Because I usually do that, and then after a while my mind goes blank. Or you could meditate. The reason Harry never mastered Occlumency in my opinion is because of part stubborness against Snape, and not knowing why he was doing it therefore thinking it's stipd and not comitting himself. But that could be put to will power for fighting his own emotions. Which is the entire point of Occlumency I suppose

 

This comparsion might have been made before but meh.
Before Hogwart's-
Volemort was doing magic whenever he wanted to and kicking ass.
Harry was sleeping in a closet and getting his ass kicked.

Hogward's 1st year-
By the end of this year...well we know tom was at the top of his class and had full control of his parseltounge ability.

Harry...took a walk through a fun house..I mean really thats all it was, plants, chess, a riddle, and keys. Say it was voldemort's cave...then I can understand but it wasn't.

Hogward's second year.
Tom found out he was related to Slytherin and was actively looking for the chamber while keeping his search a secret. Kinda hard in Hogwards if you think about it.

Harry was high off of living with the Weasley and going to a party full of Ghosts. Harry found the chamber through Hermione and Myrtle. Then he had the phoenix claw out the eyes of the snake. So he could poke a BLIND snake in the mouth while injuring himself...A BLIND SNAKE. Then stabbed a book with the tooth of a basilisk .

Hogwards third year.
Voldemort would of started dark magic around this time while looking for the chamber by himself mostly. And most likely trying to come up with a new name.

Harry was learning the Patronus charm. And used a TimeTurner. Then got a hard-on when siruis asked if he want to live with him.

Hogwart's fourth year.
Voldemort is at the head of his class. And is very close to finding the Chamber which no one not even Dumbledore could find. And most likely has a good base of dark magic by now.

Harry did the triwizard compation...which was impressive, even if he had help. When he fought Voldemort his wand and those ghost things mostly saved him as. The fight was nothing like when dumbledore fought tom. ( I believe this would of been the best year for harry to get his shit together and start learning)

Hogward's fifth year.
Tom found the chamber and took control of the serpent even had it kill someone. Then tricked the whole school into believing that hagrid did it. He was also a perfect. Held with high regrades by all the teachers. Made the Diary.

Harry...went emo. He watched a real duel (voldemort Vs Dumbledore and did nothing after words.

Hogward's sixth year.
Tom was still a prefect and getting stronger.

Harry had a hard-on for draco. Got his ass kicked by Draco.

Hogward's seventh year
Tom left Hogwards with top honors and went on to become The most powerful Wizard in history.

Harry..we have yet to see.

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Do you think harry really has a chance against Voldemort?
Even if Dumbledore did teach him...would he really stand a chance?

 

Indo, you forgot he had a hard on @ Cho in 4th year. and 5th.

That's because you fail at Zen Taure

 

Garion if you are still reading this ..... there can be millions of reasons why Dumbledore didnt train Harry. Maybe he got hard seeing Harry in the hospital gowns and wanted to keep him there as much as he could....pick one.

 

Harry has no chance against an accomplished duelist even if he went to train for two years. Against Voldemort or Dumbledore or even Snape, no chance at all. Dumbledore knows that, so there's no sense in teaching Harry some parlor tricks that are hardly going to help him. There is no use in knowing a gajillion spells if all you need to duel is how to shield, how to dodge and how to shoot.

Dumbledore knew what he needed to tell Harry: how to kill Voldemort. And you can't do that through some fancy spells, but rather through destroying horcruxes.

Harry could hardly survive any serious duel normally, but he somehow has what it takes to survive. His instincts have helped him so far (touching Quirrel to death, stabbing the diary, surviving in the graveyard), as well as the prophecy protecting him (the Death Eaters are ordered not to kill him). That is what will help him kill Voldemort, maybe the help from his friends as well.

 

Sure thing World but still when it comes down to the Final Duel. Voldemort has a HUGE advantage. Unless Harry stabs him when he is asleep,

 

On the issue of Harry's lack of general skills in magic, I think it all comes down to a lack of dedication on Harry's part. Something which is, I'll admit, a truely idiotic thing to lack if your being chased by the most powerful dark lord in whatever many years. Just consider it, anyone who's still in school, look around some time and imagine those who are lowest in the class. What do they do all day, sit around and talk with their friends or mess about when they should/could be working and learning.

It's the same for any professional sporting stars or award winning anythings. They all put a hell of a lot of work in and are dedicated with whatever they do; the sport stars spending hours a day training and keeping in shape or the award winning scientists spending hours in a laboratory and working on equations endlessly. There is no way they could do that without dedication.

Now look at harry and Tom Riddle. Indo has already shown us the comparrison between the two of them and what's different about each of them? Dedication. Voldemort was, at first, dedicated to having something to his name, coming from an orphanage where he was constantly belittled and bullied and later a dedication to rid the world of the impure or to gain ultimate power. Then there's harry, the one thing he was truely dedicated to was learning the patronus, which he succeeded in. Then there was occlumency, which he dreaded every minute of, and non-verbal spells, which i really didn't see him caring about at all. Both of which he failed in.


As for why Dumbledore didn't train harry; I have no idea. None of us really do. I think, for the first few years of harry's life, it was the same old fanon excuse of wanting to preserve his childhood. Perhaps he really didn't know of the abuse in privet drive. As for harry's later years, we know he couldn't go near harry in fifth year, because of harry's close connection to voldemort, and he arranged for help in the form of severus snape which obviously failed. In sixth year, perhaps Dumbledore truely thought he was helping by letting harry into the matter of the horcruxes and letting him know what he needed to do to kill voldemort. He just didn't take care of anything very practical.

 

in my opinion dumbledore hasn't trained harry for entirely different reasons:
try to look at it this way: voldemorts protection against death are his horcruxes and as long as he had them dumbledore wasn't willing to try and kill him.
but dumbledore gave harry all the knowledge he needed to destroy those.
even if harry is only mediocre in 5th and 6th book (which he sadly is) he is determined to kill riddle (if only for revenge for his parents)
and really why learn all those fancy magicks when all it takes is one single spell to end it all. and i am quite sure that even harry can manage the killing curse if he wants to!

besides, don't forget you are reading a childrens book, not something like kill bill where a singe hero/antihero manages to completely destroy the enemy

 

Canon Harry's really a bit of an idiot. I mean he has the very best motivation possible to learn magic; it's a link to his parents, it will (eventually) give him power over the Dursleys, and it might just maybe help him survive the horribly scary murderer who's out to kill him. He's had the best encouragement from the word go; "You're a wizard Harry, and a thumpin' good 'un" - Hagrid. "I think we can expect great things from you Mr Potter" - Ollivander. "There's talent, oh my yes." - the Sorting Hat. Even Snape's victimisation would be a form of encouragement, at least to me. That sort of hostility would drive me to be able to answer all the difficult questions he put to me, and to be good enough at the subject to show up his prized slytherins. Instead Harry's happy to just potter along (Ouch, bad pun) at the standard class pace. It's something I've never understood about him, really. I'll be the first to admit I'm not a particularly dedicated student, but given a subject like magic with such tangible results and such a possibility for self-study my marks would still be down due to poor-quality homework but I'd be at Hermione's level for practical skills and general magical knowledge, because magic is freakin' awesome.

As to Dumbledore, either the man is completely senile or he's being so smart it's come round full circle and is biting him in the ass as stupidity. Why do I say this? Look at his actions so far: Setting 5 little traps that 3 first-year students can bypass to protect one of the most powerful magical objects in existence, one that is being sought after by aforementioned very powerful murderous wizard? Either he is senile enough to believe that's going to work or he's smartly stupid and is setting them up to challenge Harry and co. and really relying on Harry to stop VoldeQuirrel. Hells he places a magical child with a couple with an intense loathing of magic, and then to all intents and purposes doesn't bother to check up on the child ever. Either senile or part of a plan (which I won't speculate on since there're more than enough Indy!Harry fics that do that already).

 

The Patronus Charm=Plot hole.

In PoA, Lupin says:

Now, I'm interpreting "well beyond Ordinary Wizarding Level" as being right at N.E.W.T. level or slightly beyond, meaning that a talented witch/wizard should be able to perform it as a 5th/6th year. So, then, why is it that many qualified wizards have trouble performing a slightly higher than N.E.W.T. level spell? You would think that being a "qualified wizard" would mean that you passed your N.E.W.T.-s, and if a large amount of "qualified wizards" can't perform a spell just a little more difficult than N.E.W.T. level, than...wtf?

--------

Anyways, I agree that Harry has squandered his talent. And, this is how the magical community measures greatness:

What a crock of shit.

Also, Harry has no ambition. We see examples of fantastic wizards (James, Snape, Dumbledore, Riddle) who are doing magical things well beyond their years with no apparent difficulty, and all that Harry can do is a Patronus. Well whoop-de-fucking-do. He hardly studies, he definitely isn't a natural at magic...the only thing that he has going for him is a prophecy that protects him from all causes of death except for by Voldemort's hand. And the thing is, that she set Harry up to be a really powerful wizard with Book 3, but then she cut back on the whole "better yourself" aspect of the series, instead choosing to make the theme "Love conquers all." I'm disgusted.

 

Actually, I think from recent indicators we can see that the majority of Wizarding people do not pass their NEWTs (or at least pass them well), shown by the fact that most ministry employees can't perform a simple protego. A qualified wizard would simply be one over 17.

 

In response to the original question, what reasons you choose can depend entirely on how you see Dumbledore - as a man with good intentions making mistakes, or as somebody set out to constantly manipulate people.

Personally, the first idea that came to mind is that Harry's still a child. And while he's been recklessly getting into situations and other people have even helped him get into them (whether intentionally or not), Dumbledore still wants Harry to have some semblance of a childhood - but that's just my opinion.

Besides that, Harry's still very ill-prepared when you consider he's eventually got to take down Voldemort, though. I'm curious to see how Harry'd have any chance against a powerful wizard like Voldemort with his current knowledge.

 

Harry doesn't have a chance against Voldemort, that's the point!

He would at least have more time to live if Dumbledore had trained him. But, sadly, it's clear we'll have a deux ex machina in the 7th book. That's the only way Voldemort can be killed by Harry.

 

I tend to think that the reason why Dumbledore has not trained Harry is because in the first, second and third year did he want harry to have a childhood, forth year so could he hardly risk being seen personally training one of the champions, fifth year was it because harrys and voldemorts mind connection and in sixth year so did he know that he would die so he felt that it would be useless to teach harry magic as he can not learn much in only a year so he instead shows harry how voldemort has defeated death so harry knows what he must do to defeat voldemort.

On the topic on if harry is a great wizard or not so do I belive that all the compents in book 1 about him being great are true, he can be great if he focused and was determined to learn.

He can still be a great wizard but he needs several years to train first.

 

Canon-wise, the reason Dumbledore hasn't trained Harry in Duelling or 'Battle Arts' or any other incredible magic is for the simple fact that it isn't relevant to the plot. JKR created a world, not as many of us picture it in fanon, where the elite few (Dumbledore, Harry, Voldemort) perform incredible feats with swirling auras and invisible breezes swirling around them; but a world where magic is as mundane as electricity is to us.

The incredibly difficult Post-Newt level Patronus charm doesn't tire Harry out, it isn't an enormously difficult concept to grasp with arithmantic equations and runic elements, its just point-happy-shoot. The only evidence we see of Dumbledore's great power is his incredible presence - which has nothing to do with magic whatsoever, in truth, I have some rather ancient members in my family and when they speak everyone listens, everyone respects them for their knowledge. JKR''s world doesn't need an intensive training program for Harry to learn to reach his magical core, or to summon power from some other realm. Harry is a wizard - no ifs ands or buts about it.

Dumbledore creates a Portkey with nothing but a tap of his wand, a restricted item that can transport innumerable people hundreds of miles. It's not a difficult task -he just does it, just as you or I would start a car.

Occlumency lessons were shown as a medium to create true hatred or rivalry between Harry and Snape, a character based idea, not one to illustrate an ancient art to the reader.

Magic is not important in JKR's world, its merely a part of everyday life, Harry doesn't need lessons to become an all powerful Magus in order to defeat Voldemort. He needs a vital human element which Voldemort lacks, Love. Compassion, Guilt, Sadness, Grief - all of this probably sounds like complete Disney crap, but in the world JKR has created it's true.

If I haven't convinced some of you...too bad, but think for a moment looking back on the last six books, do you really believe that Harry will suddenly become a god in the next book? Able to throw lightning from his hands, see magic, become a polyanimagus, and have control over the elements? We have no evidence to support this kind of magic in the Potterverse, and no, I don't think that Ancient Magic covers this.

BTW-Shouldn't this be moved into the Canon section?

 

Avitus: You're absolutely right, but that doesn't mean that we have to like it. That's the one thing that I detest about the world that JKR created. I would think that all Muggleborns would be the most ambitious of them all, coming from a normal family and wanting to be able to do all kinds of impossible things. I know that if I got a letter to Hogwarts telling me that I was a wizard, I would hop on the train and be in the library researching 24/7. I would learn everything that I absolutely could about this new strange world. And I don't get why JKR doesn't have anybody else do that. They just accept magic as a normal part of life and take it for granted.

 

You all have pretty much hit on two major things that irks me with HP. Harry not committing himself to learn and the lack of definition of magic.

As others have pointed out before Harry is a lazy bum, almost as bad as Ron. Now with Ron I can see him lounging around, hardly studying because he has been around magic for so long that he takes it for granted. On the other hand to Harry magic provides a means of escape. What happens if he fails? He goes back to the Dursleys. That I think is marvelous motivation to learn all he can about this new world. Instead we see Harry lounging around with Ron, barely doing homework, moping over girls, even after he learns that the psychopath he supposedly defeated is still around. I don’t expect him to be a Hermione. I just want him to take a little more initiative. Personally if I had grown up in a cupboard I would seize this opportunity with both hands.

Then of course there is JKRs magical world. As Avitus said it exists. There are no limits, supposedly, to what magic can do, other than the limits of the caster. This means that there are no rules of magic, so you can do anything you want. That annoys me because I think that magic is governed by a set of natural laws that restrict its usage and ability. In AD&D you need to memorize the spell after 8 hrs of rest and once used they are gone, till you memorize them again. In the Balgarad series by David Eddings, you could conceivable do anything, but you needed to focus you mind, imagine what you want, borrow the energy from your surroundings and will it to happen (and you couldn’t uncreate). On top of that other magic users ‘hear’ you if you are too unfocused. But there are no such limits in the HP-verse. There is no talk of lay-lines or fairy rings. There is no internal storage of magic or burrowing from the environment. There is no pact with a higher being to channel their power. Just a wand to swish and flick.

And as much as I agree with you Avitus, I still hate that fact.

Why doesn't Dumbledore train Harry? Because I think he's a senile of fart with his fingers in too many pies. Either that or he was afraid that Harry would become the next Dark Lord.

 

There are indeed limits in the HP world to a wizards power. A wizard is limited by the fact that although it may be possible to do anything, he doesn't have the knowledge of how to do everything.

So as Dumbledore said: 'There is no way to re awaken the dead". It may be possible to bring someone back to life, but wizards at the present time do not have the knowledge of how to do so - their power is limited by their knowledge of how to use it. Even the most powerful wizards such as Dumbeldore do not have complete knowledge of magic.

Plus, needing to use a wand is a limit in itself.

 

I concede that the wizards are limited by their knowledge or lack there of. What I'm referring to is the magic itself. The limits of what magic can do is very fuzzy. I mean in JKRs world magic just exist as a backdrop with out definition. For the most part its like answering the question "How can guys get pregnant" by saying "its magic". While technically correct the answer leave a lot to be desired.

On the point of wand. That would depend on your view of the wand and their effect on magic.

 

We have seen people criticizing Harry left right and centre and others who have defened him all along. But just think about it, Harry is JKR's creation. He's as powerful or weak as that lady chooses to make him. Her writing abilities with respect to Harry have severly deteriorated after book 4, it was really badin 5 and pthetic in 6. We should not expect much from her in the final book as well. I distinctly recall reading her (in)famous interview that appeared shortly after HBP was released. In her answer to a question about Harry facing a tall order in the future, she replied "He's amassed more magical knowledge than he himself knows", in other words "I am not giving him any damm training in the next book, there's always love". I agree with the points raised about Harry's inabilities and the only person I blame for that is that damm JKR.