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Azkaban and Wizarding Justice

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skeletaure, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    Another example of people being held against their will outside of Azkaban is Moody during GoF. I'd say that he's one of the more uniquely gifted persons when it comes to trying to escape tough situations, and there's no indication that he was having any luck trying to escape on his own.
     
  2. MonkeyEpoxy

    MonkeyEpoxy The Cursed Child DLP Supporter

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    Why not just keep convicted criminals dosed with the Draught of Living Death for a pretermined length of time? Then the only expense is a bed. When the sentence is expired, apply the wiggenwald potion. Of course that is assuming that the side-effects of the potion are known and negligible
     
  3. Halt

    Halt 1/3 of the Note Bros. Moderator

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    What about someone trying to break them out?
     
  4. Joe

    Joe The Reminiscent Exile ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter ⭐⭐⭐

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    You still hit the issue of not having solved the problem. The Draught of Living Death is akin to suspended animation - anyone going under is coming out exactly how they went in. There's been no attempt at rehabilitation. Or, in this case, time for the convicted offender to reflect on what they did and perhaps resolve to do better.
     
  5. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    If you want to keep them docile but manageable, use the Body Bind. Presumably wizards have the means to keep someone alive and well while they enjoy a taste of locked-in syndrome.
     
  6. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    Then there's the option of forcing a magical contract/unbreakable vow on convicted criminals (GoF, HBP). Magically enforced probation sounds pretty good option for smaller infractions.
     
  7. aAlouda

    aAlouda High Inquisitor

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    If the point is just to permanently remove them from society, without resorting to the death penalty, why not just transfigure them into inanimate objects or really stupid animals. If its possible to turn a island full of Wizards into Quintapeds, then this shouldnt be out of question.

    Another alternative would be petrification, Chamber of Secrets implied that there are other ways than the Basilisk to achieve the effect.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  8. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I think a question that should be asked before dealing with Azkaban is what is the perspective of wizards towards morals and ethics. When love is literally a potential power...what effect do ideals and concepts of justice have on a society.
     
  9. Agent

    Agent High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    I think Joe's touched upon something here that could be the in-universe explanation.

    Azkaban isn't for the prisoners. It's for the Dementors. There's no way to permanently kill a Dementor and obviously the Ministry wants them kept away from the general population. Since they can be negotiated with, they've struck a deal with them to keep giving them prisoners in exchange for them keeping themselves to the island.

    The problem however comes with what kind of prisoners Azkaban gets. Yeah, it would be ideal for it to only be high level murderers and terrorists but due to the (relatively) small size of the wizarding world, how many of those would they have? Probably not enough to keep the Dementors appeased. Hence the reason for chucking apparently everyone from Hagrid to Stan to Bellatrix in the same prison (Though different floors/security levels).
     
  10. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    What if, we assume for the sake of the discussion, that this is literally impossible?
     
  11. Arthellion

    Arthellion Lord of the Banned ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Battlefield removal? Build a ward turning azkaban into a prison for dementors too?
     
  12. kelkorkesis

    kelkorkesis DA Member

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    Can Dementors pass through solid stuff? What would happen if Ministry just build a wall around Azkaban?
     
  13. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Bah, everyone knows you kill off a dementor with a Golden Patronus powered by love.

    But seriously, I wouldn't be shocked if the Ministry has looked into other solutions to the Dementor problem, but hasn't found anything else that's better.
     
  14. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    They just fly over it.

    Honestly, while I would be truly shocked to learn JKR actually thought through the implications of Azkaban and Dementors, "they're unkillable monsters we struck a deal with because we've tried everything and there's literally no other way to handle this situation" makes a great deal of sense. I imagine that in ages past, Dementors just roamed the countryside hunting whenever they felt like it, and despite the Ministry's best efforts, they were a problem that couldn't be solved. So out of desperation, they proposed a deal that effectively leashed the Dementors in return for sacrificing the worst elements of their society to them.

    That kind of thing is not exactly a rare decision throughout human history, and it makes all kinds of sense from a realpolitik stand point.
     
  15. Silirt

    Silirt Chief Warlock DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    For what it's worth, they merely hover in the books. Flying was a film thing.
     
  16. Blorcyn

    Blorcyn Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Just a copy paste from Pottermore, but for those as are interested in the world building around Azkaban:

    Azkaban has existed since the fifteenth century and was not originally a prison at all. The island in the North Sea upon which the first fortress was built never appeared on any map, Muggle or wizarding, and is believed to have been created, or enlarged, by magical means.

    The fortress upon it was originally home to a little-known sorcerer who called himself Ekrizdis. Evidently extremely powerful, but of unknown nationality, Ekrizdis, who is believed to have been insane, was a practitioner of the worst kinds of Dark Arts. Alone in the middle of the ocean, he lured, tortured and killed Muggle sailors, apparently for pleasure, and only when he died, and the concealment charms he had cast faded away, did the Ministry of Magic realise that either island or building existed. Those who entered to investigate refused afterwards to talk of what they had found inside, but the least frightening part of it was that the place was infested with Dementors.

    Many in authority thought Azkaban an evil place that was best destroyed. Others were afraid of what might happen to the Dementors infesting the building if they deprived them of their home. The creatures were already strong and impossible to kill; many feared a horrible revenge if they took away a habitat where they appeared to thrive. The very walls of the building seemed steeped in misery and pain, and the Dementors were determined to cling to it. Experts who had studied buildings built with and around Dark magic contended that Azkaban might wreak its own revenge upon anybody attempting to destroy it. The fortress was therefore left abandoned for many years, a home to continually breeding Dementors.

    Once the International Statute of Secrecy had been imposed, the Ministry of Magic felt that the small wizarding prisons that existed up and down the country in various towns and villages posed a security risk, because attempts by incarcerated witches and wizards to break out often led to undesirable bangs, smells and light shows. A purpose-built prison, located on some remote Hebridean island, was preferred, and plans had been drawn up when Damocles Rowle became Minister for Magic.

    Rowle was an authoritarian who had risen to power on an anti-Muggle agenda, capitalising on the anger felt by much of the wizarding community at being forced to go underground. Sadistic by nature, Rowle scrapped the plans for the new prison at once and insisted on using Azkaban. He claimed that the Dementors living there were an advantage: they could be harnessed as guards, saving the Ministry time, trouble and expense.

    In spite of opposition from many wizards, among them experts on both Dementors and buildings with Azkaban’s kind of Dark history, Rowle carried out his plan and soon a steady trickle of prisoners had been placed there. None ever emerged. If they were not mad and dangerous before being placed in Azkaban, they swiftly became so.

    Rowle was succeeded by Perseus Parkinson, who was likewise pro-Azkaban. By the time that Eldritch Diggory took over as Minister for Magic, the prison had been operating for fifteen years. There had been no breakouts and no breaches of security. The new prison seemed to be working well. It was only when Diggory went to visit that he realised exactly what conditions inside were like. Prisoners were mostly insane and a graveyard had been established to accommodate those that died of despair.

    Back in London, Diggory established a committee to explore alternatives to Azkaban, or at least to remove the Dementors as guards. Experts explained to him that the only reason the Dementors were (mostly) confined to the island was that they were being provided with a constant supply of souls on which to feed. If deprived of prisoners, they were likely to abandon the prison and head for the mainland.

    This advice notwithstanding, Diggory had been so horrified by what he had seen inside Azkaban that he pressed the committee to find alternatives. Before they could reach any decision, however, Diggory caught dragon pox and died. From that time until the advent of Kingsley Shacklebolt, no Minister ever seriously considered closing Azkaban. They turned a blind eye to the inhumane conditions inside the fortress, permitted it to be magically enlarged and expanded and rarely visited, due to the awful effects of entering a building populated by thousands of Dementors. Most justified their attitude by pointing to the prison’s perfect record at keeping prisoners locked up.

    Nearly three centuries passed before that record was broken. A young man was successfully smuggled out of the prison when his visiting mother exchanged places with him, something that the blind and loveless Dementors could not detect and would have never expected. This escape was followed by another, still more ingenious and impressive, when Sirius Black managed to evade the Dementors single-handed.

    The weakness of the prison was demonstrated amply over the next few years, when two mass breakouts occurred, both involving Death Eaters. By this time the Dementors had given their allegiance to Lord Voldemort, who could guarantee them scope and freedom hitherto un-tasted. Albus Dumbledore was one who had long disapproved of the use of Dementors as guards, not only because of the inhumane treatment of the prisoners in their power, but because he foresaw the possible shift in loyalties of such Dark creatures.

    Under Kingsley Shacklebolt, Azkaban was purged of Dementors. While it remains in use as a prison, the guards are now Aurors, who are regularly rotated from the mainland. There has been no breakout since this new system was introduced.

    J.K. Rowling’s thoughts
    The name ‘Azkaban’ derives from a mixture of the prison ‘Alcatraz’, which is its closest Muggle equivalent, being set on an island, and ‘Abaddon’, which is a Hebrew word meaning ‘place of destruction’ or ‘depths of hell
     
  17. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    Sure, but like, if you can hover at 6 inches, you can hover at 300 feet. Unless there's some weird finicky thing to Dementors where they're not really hovering but functionally standing on invisible legs, they can assuredly fly, though it wouldn't be any faster (or slower) than they can move "on the ground".
     
  18. kelkorkesis

    kelkorkesis DA Member

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    Well, just put them in enclosed area then. Now what happens?
     
  19. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    If there's some asshole out there with the ability to curse my entire bloodline and shows no hesitation to use those powers, you'd better believe he can rot in Azkaban.

    Morals are great until there's walking bombs on the street.
     
  20. VanRopen

    VanRopen Headmaster

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    Nobody said you can’t imprison him. Or kill him.
     
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