I have all 12 seasons between the two shows, and I think the cup of perpetual torment was great. I like how Angel eventually gets the wolf girl (Nina?).

Smile time has a great fight club mockup I'll try and find it later.


EDIT:here it is.

 

If I had any 'thumbs up' left I'd give you one, Oliver. That is just brilliant.

Lets not forget Spike's reaction to Puppet!Angel : here

 

I think while overall, Angel was more consistent in its quality, when Buffy was at the top of its game it was far better. Angel had more focus to it though, whereas Buffy seemed to do a season, then come up with a new plot and change things accordingly (particularly magic in the later series).

Anybody been following the comics? I've read all of season 8 of Buffy which was...ok for the most part, and just fucking weird by the end. I'm still not sure I understand quite what happened; I think I need to re-read it. I've read the After the Fall comics, but not much of what's happened after that for Angel.

Edit: Smile Time is absolutely brilliant, 'tis true.

 

It wasn't just by the end.

Weirdness:

Spoiler

Dawn is changed into a giant, a centaur, and a porcine doll, and it wasn't just for one or two issues.

Harmony, gets her own talk show when vampires go public and eventually lands a Dancing with the Stars gig.

Xander bangs Dawn.

Buffy randomly has a lesbian tryst, just for the heck of it.

Angel is the big bad for the penultimate arc, but it's for a good reason since... wait for it... Buffy turns into Supergirl complete with super-hearing, telescopic vision, super strength, invulnerability, and flight powers, but sans skimpy costume.

Oh, I almost forgot, Buffy destroys magic. All magic. Everywhere.

 

What do you all think of Wolfram & Hart as villains. Would Buffy stand a chance if she went up against them, or would her 'woe is me' attitude and righteous indignation prove no match for the evil lawyers??

Yeah, the season 8 comics sucked ass. I was more pissed off about them destroying Angel's character than anything. It seems like they completely ignored any character development he has had in the past and put him right back to being a plot-device for Buffy.

The new Angel & Faith comic is pretty good so far. Granted, only one issue is out at the moment, but the story is solid and the art is excellent.

 

You people forget the most hilarious thing of the Buffy comics, Angel's villain name:

Spoiler

Twilight

 

They did a cover with Angle, Spike, and Buffy which parodied one of the movie posters. I thought it was funny, considering his name.

 

I think there's a fundemental difference in the way the Buffy gang and the Angel gang operate. Pretty much the only 'investigating' the scooby gang get up to is Giles researching the specific way to kill a demon/stop a ritual and then Buffy is pointed like a canon in their enemy's direction. Which is perfect for the 'monster of the week' style. In LA, Angel is forced to be more discreet and that makes both his methods and the general feel of Angel as a show to be more complex. In other words, Buffy would probably just beat the shit out of Holland Manners outright or something and then get sued/jailed. The scoobies aren't known for their ability to consider the consequences.

Personally I think that, while the quality of production definitely increased as the Buffy series progressed, the storyline attempted to become more serious while retaining the same characters. It didn't work well.

And, yes, the Spike and Angel dynamic is fucking brilliant.

 

You're right. That probably wouldn't work out too well for Buffy, but watching her pund Holland Manners into the ground would be all kinds of hilarious; but it still wouldn't compare with what Wolfram & Hart does to its own employees.

They did try to make the Buffy seasons more serious, with mixed success. I honestly really enjoy the 5th season. It's one of my favorites.

The Angel & Spike dynamic in Angel season 5 was great. Without Buffy around Spike was able to grow as a character, which he greatly needed after the final 2 seasons of Buffy.

I still wish we had gotten more Illyria. She was fucking awesome and Wesley/Illyria was inevitable.

 

I also enjoyed Angel far more than Buffy. After Angel left, only Season 5 was worthwhile in Buffy. The other three seasons had a couple good episodes each, but by and large fell apart trying to mature without the character development.

Frankly, after Faith arrived on Angel, and definitely by Darla being revamped, Angel surpassed Buffy and rarely looked back. Angel wasn't perfect - not by a long shot - but it kept pushing boundaries for the universe, bringing in new concepts.

The comics for Buffy were alright at first, but steadily went downhill, over the top, and became painfully silly. Again, the Angel comics were better. At least until the end of the original arc which is all I've read so far. I won't be reading S9 of Buffy.

 

The Angel characters grew as a result of the conflict in their lives (for example: Wesley). The character progression was well done and believeable and maintained for the series. Buffy tried and failed to do the same thing. Willow, after she tried to destroy the world and lost her lover, should have become a darker character but she didn't, cheapening the storyline.

I personally liked Angel better because it had better storylines and hot females but that might just be me.

 

Yeah, Faith's appearances on Angel were a lot better than her appearances on Buffy. I would have liked to see her on the show more.

Darla being revamped was fun, although I will admit that for me it was because Drusilla is so fucking awesome and she was a lot more menacing on Angel than she ever was on Buffy.

Angel locking the lawyers in the cellar with Darla and Drusilla was one of my favorite scenes in season 2.

The darkness the show could bring out in its characters is something that Buffy was never able to do.

 

I have a serious problem with Angel, Connor.

Every episode with him before season five was irritating, Jasmine was awful, and a terribad way to get Cordi less involved.

 

Yeah, I never really liked Connor either until season 5. He was actually pretty cool.

Overall though, the best thing to happen to season 5 was Illyria. It's too bad we only got see her for less than half a season.

 

Connor was a mixed bag. I hated the character like 99% of the fanbase. But I liked the season four storyline, and ultimately where he ended up. Season four had some of the best Angel moments for me: Faith and Angelus returning, for starters. The rain of fire, blacked out sun... Nothing Buffy ever would've done.

I've heard Charisma Carpenter became pregnant as season four was about to start shooting but didn't tell Whedon or anyone else for a couple months. So, towards the middle-end of the season she was going to be rather obviously pregnant. Whedon was rather displeased and had to rewrite part of the storyline to accommodate for her pregnancy. Hence, Jasmine. And Connor sleeping with Cordelia. (Or at least, I hope they weren't already in there.)

 

Cordelia's season 4 storyline was shit way before the middle of the season even came around, so I'm not going to excuse Whedon for that.

Am I the only one that loves Lindsey McDonald? This guy is just so fucking awesome.

 

Angel's an awesome show, and while I acknowledge why a lot of people dislike season four apart from the little things, I loved it. It was just really soul-crushing kind of apocalypse stuff, and showed the despair of the situation well. Don't like how everybody hates on Cordelia though, given that she was under Jasmine's control since getting her memory back... So, you know, had nothing to do with what ensued, apart from being a meatsuit, which is more sick and tragic than worthy of being hated on.

But yeah, still loved the rest of the show (Especially Wes's whole arc. Favourite character arc of anything, ever, though maybe tied with John Crichton's descent into insanity.), and am currently getting a good laugh out of the videos Cyclops posted, having just watched this gem that completely pokes fun at the Buffy/Angel relationship in one great scene.

Hmm. Now I have the urge to rewatch. Should be awesome.

 

Exactly. That's why I loved it. Unlike Buffy season seven, I really felt the apocalypse was actually coming (or here).

The season four Cordelia hate is rather ridiculous sometimes. Though, it is debatable when Cordelia stopped being Cordelia. Some argue the change occurred as far back as when she first met Skip and became part-demon. I, however, think the last time we see proper Cordelia is at the end of the second episode of season four, while she was still on a 'higher-plane' (which probably wasn't actually one).

Also, props for being a Farscape fan.