1. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice

Can apparition be tracked and/or followed?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Reiku, Dec 11, 2017.

  1. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,354
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    No need to apologise at all, I wasn't offended, after all. In the same way, it's my opinion that the wiki is spuriously sourced at the best of days, and would better be called HP-Fanon-wiki at the worst of days. Your stance is exactly what I mean: I don't want a lexicon to tell me what "very well could have" happened, I can do that myself. I want it to list me facts and give me the source of them, and that's it. The HP-Lexicon excels at this, because while they do that sort of speculation, it's clearly separated in "essays" written by various authors, and the lexicon proper is nothing but a collection of sourced facts.

    I don't need to prove it contradicts Canon. You need to prove it's explicitly stated in Canon, because that, at least in the way I understand it, is what a lexicon is for.

    @Methos: Yes, like I said. You are confusing "could this theoretically be possible" with "what does Canon say on the matter". Don't tell me you're working on the wiki as well -_-

    @Sorrows: ... yes. But, y'know, THE RIGHT TO BEAR WANDS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED etc. you just know there is a National Wand Association. And of course there will be enough purebloods who let their children do magic in the holidays because why not.
     
  2. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,405
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    That sounds like crazy muggle talk.

    No one shall separate a wizard or a witch from their wand!
     
  3. Sorrows

    Sorrows Auror Prestige DLP Gold Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2008
    Messages:
    663
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    High Score:
    1,819
    Underage Wandcarriers: The Wizarding world's 2nd Amendment debate.
     
  4. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,405
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    Plot Twist: Voldemort doesn't even have to start a war. He can get elected on the platform of wanting to abolish the Trace.
     
  5. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,216
    Location:
    NJ
    Funnily enough, this is exactly what happens at Ilvermorny. Perhaps you already knew that when you posted, but for those who don't:

    From Pottermore: The Sorting Ceremony is not the only major difference between Hogwarts and Ilvermorny (though in so many ways the schools resemble each other). Once students have been allocated a house they are led into a large hall where they select (or are selected by) a wand. Until the 1965 repeal of Rappaport’s Law, which enforced very strict conformity with the Statute of Secrecy, no child was allowed a wand until they arrived at Ilvermorny. Moreover, wands had to be left at Ilvermorny during vacations and only upon attaining seventeen years of age was the witch or wizard legally allowed to carry a wand outside school.
     
  6. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,354
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    Oy! I made the 2nd Amendment joke first. Don't go stealing jokes, yo.
     
  7. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,405
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Silesia
    You have unleashed a terrible monster today.
     
  8. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fifth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    140
    High Score:
    0
    The only reason I "fill the blanks" in the BTS section on the wikia is - well, it's me, there's something about me and things having to "make sense", or else I have break downs. That being said, I like to think that my added points to the BTS, if not proven canon, serves the added purpose of getting people to think and might spark the interest of starting up interesting discussion. I mean - I never add implausible scenarios...
     
  9. Alistair

    Alistair First Year

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think the Trace has any relevance to the tracking of appartion. Here are the facts as I see them.

    1.) The trace can detect magic cast in the vicinity of the person, but can't tell who actually casts it (as proven by Dobby's high jinks in book 2)
    2.) The trace is applied, presumably to the wand, sometime prior to finishing the first year of Hogwarts, but after the person gets a wand (Accidental magic isn't logged and Hermione practiced spells prior to boarding the Hogwarts express.)
    3.) The trace appears not to be activated if an adult wizard is present (School, Dumbledore, World Cup etc...)

    As such, it seems likely that the trace itself is merely a way of detecting magic in the vicinity and cannot identify the caster. This would explain why Harry isn't pulled up for his appartion around Dumbedore or in Diagon Alley, the world cup etc. It would also explain Fred and Georges' experimentation at the Burrow prior to Book 5 (They can't possibly have invented Ton-Tongue Toffees without magical experimentation over the summer of book 4 at the very least)

    In summary, it's my belief that the Trace is activated and notifies the office if
    a.) Magic is cast in it's vicinity
    AND
    b.) No adult wizard is present in the vicinity who could concievably have cast the spell

    This also suggests that either the ministry has some way of tracking the location of anyone who isn't actively hiding, or there is a spell on adults or their wands which deactivates the trace.

    Both explanations have issues. The first would explain why Sirius was confined to Grimmauld Place full-time and the trio had to mask their camp during 7th year and avoids awkward questions regarding why Dumbledores wand, which predates the Statute of Secrecy and therefore presumably the Trace, would have it. But it makes it difficut to explain why it couldn't prove Voldemort was back in book 4, and why Peter and Sirius weren't flagged between '81 and book 3, and during his time in Hogsmeade in Book 3 respectively. You could however suggest that the method can't track transformed Animagi (a good reason for Peter to not transform for 7 full years), and that Voldemort either never left a warded location and/or his new body was sufficiently inhuman not to register. I suppose you could also justify it with 'Dark Rituals' during hs first rise or have the tracking rely on a whole human soul.

    The second has other issues. When is it applied and how? Why didn't it flag Sirius at the ministry in book 5? Why would the Deathstick have this spell applied during Dumbledores ownership? What about British kids who do magic in Durmstrang or Beaxbatons?

    On balance I prefer the first explanation.

    So whats the relevance to apparition?

    Well its my belief that apparition itself can't be tracked, but whatever means the ministry has of tracking the individual will be able to identify the 'landing point' as long as it's not under wards.
     
  10. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,216
    Location:
    NJ
    The trace has too many unknowns to do anything other than speculate with. However, if I were to speculate, I would agree and say that the trace is probably applied to the wand. When that happens (even if not applied to the wand) is anyone's guess, since no mention of the trace (by name) is made until the 7th book.

    However, along those lines, we don't even know if you need a wand to apparate. So if the trace is applied to a wand, and you don't actually need a wand to apparate, it's kind of a moot point. There's evidence supporting both views.

    But, as I see it, when Harry is taught how to apparate, there is no mention made of a wand at all. There is no spell that is cast, no incantation. So, why would you need a wand if there's no incantation? You wouldn't just teach someone how to do a spell wordlessly to start with, so I think there's more to it than that. The only analog to that is one of JKR's many post-revisionist statements (which I personally don't consider canon) where she says that you need a wand to brew a potion, but it's never made clear exactly why (other than the obvious - so muggles can't brew potions).
     
  11. Rehio

    Rehio Alchemist DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Messages:
    2,460
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Hey, gotta stir it somehow.
     
  12. wordhammer

    wordhammer Supreme Mugwump DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,624
    Location:
    In the wood room, somewhere flat
    How canon do you consider the illustrations from the books? I mention this because the picture from Harry's Apparation class shows him holding his wand at his side. There's also the moment in the 7th book when they're trapped in the basement of Malfoy Manor and Harry notes "Ron was now trying to Disapparate without a wand". Luna explains that she and Ollviander had tried everything they could think of to escape and came up short. When Ron told the tale of his escape from the snatchers, he specifically didn't try to Disapparate until he'd grabbed one of their wands... and he still splinched two fingernails off.

    My conclusion: Apparating with the wand is much easier than Apparating without one. Whether the Trace would pick it up is less certain, since it isn't exactly a spell, and incidents of accidental (or wandless) magic don't seem to activate the Trace.
     
  13. Anarchy

    Anarchy Fourth Champion DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    3,216
    Location:
    NJ
    This is why I said there's a bunch of evidence for and against needing a wand. A quick google will read out a bunch of them.
     
  14. Methos

    Methos Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    274
    High Score:
    0
    With my English and grammar? the Wiki isn't that bad :).
    I accept your point, I Indeed confused between the two, should have read the OP with more attention.
     
  15. Warlocke

    Warlocke Prisoner

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,900
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The armpit of Ohio
    It depends on your service provider and, sometimes, if they outsource their billing.
     
Loading...