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Can science be applied to magic?

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Pure Infinity, Jan 30, 2016.

  1. Russano

    Russano Disappeared

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    Forcing "science" into Harry Potter makes for a shitty story, simple as that. I agree with Sesc. Spending time building a magical spaceship sounds awful. Even if "science" and "magic" are compatible from a technical standpoint, they are not compatible from a thematic standpoint in the Harry Potter universe. This is one of those cases where you shouldn't take a close look behind the curtain.
     
  2. Nemrut

    Nemrut The Black Mage ~ Prestige ~

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    I think it depends on the degree in which you incorporate science into magic. Agreed, magic space ships, satellites or charming molecules or whatever, that's going too far.

    On the other, I am not completely opposed to stuff like using more elements than the traditional earth, fire and so on. Taking advantage of the periodic table is something that could be cool to see. Order of the Stick has a joke where Red Cloak is summoning Elementals of various elements such as Chlorine, Titanium and Silicon.

    [​IMG]
    It's tongue in cheek here but I like this approach in general.
     
  3. _GitGud_

    _GitGud_ Fourth Year DLP Supporter

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    Science doesn't need to be forced into Harry Potter. I imagine the amount of planning and transfiguration required to set up a functioning giant chess board with working AI or a sorting head type device controlling it would take months. The planning alone should be on a scale that require more than free-styling your way towards a working prototype. Just as you would use Karnaugh-Veitch maps to solve truth tables you would need something similar to minimize complicated magical systems into smaller more workable parts. There is no way in hell there is a "make chess board with AI please" spell. You could use Ancient Runes as a type of magical logic / meaning gates with inputs and outputs which you could connect together to create functionalities of your choosing.

    The armored stone defenders that are called on by McGonagall to defend Hogwarts would be build like this:
    A standardized runic scheme for bipedal humanoids connected with defense schemes against blunt trauma. An input/output scheme that allows the wizard to interconnect large numbers of them into a primary/secondary AI cluster that is controlled by a semi alive sorting head type device. An anchor stone in the chest that powers the defender unit and is loaded via an input rune scheme in the feet that drains magic from the castle. There would be vast libraries of VHDL like runic components available to build anything of any scale. The systematic study of the structure and behavior of such runic circuitry would develop naturally without any shoehorning and that in essence is science.

    On the other hand my head-canon implemented science by itself and I might not be able to perceive it as "forced in" anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
  4. Heosphoros

    Heosphoros Fourth Year

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    The relationship between magic and science is pretty unequal, you could easily use magic to improve technology, not so much the opposite. That typically leads to magic playing a supporting role to technology in stories, you have cellphones that run on magic and guns that shot magic bullets. That's frankly pretty boring, and typically destroys the feeling of the world. Though, of course, I don't mind having magical versions of technology, as long as it's sufficiently distanced from the muggle contraption (i.e not looking the same) and is creative.

    And there is the matter of the flashbacks I get. From all the 'Muggles Fuck Yeah' Wizarding World bash-fics that I encountered over the years.
     
  5. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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  6. Damask

    Damask Seventh Year

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    Oh, one of those threads again. *grabs popcorn*

    Magic in Harry Potter is in the unfortunate situation of straddling the line between esotericism and science, between Not Of This World and Of This World, that's why it lends itself to both interpretations and yet matches neither perfectly. The setting is a school of magic, which obviously implies that there's some method to magic that can be studied and it's not just a matter of power of will or innate magical power; it's easier to base a story around magic, and to make said story palatable to a young audience, if the magic in your story has some systemic, logical qualities, such as the need to correctly perform incantations, wand types that aid you in performing spells from specific schools of magic, etc.

    Consider the fact that completely esoteric magic is something that's generally used to scare the shit out of you. E.g. magic in ASoIaF (where the only magic wielders are at least a little bit villainous), magic in supernatural creepypasta. That's what happens when the process of casting magic is completely opaque, results are unpredictable, and you're kept wondering whether deals with very powerful, very evil, and rather capricious otherworldly beings are made. Magic in Harry Potter doesn't leave you feeling completely mindfucked, as properly spooky and 'unscientific' magic should.

    OTOH, it's clear we're not in a universe wherein the material substrate of reality is being dealt with in great detail. Harry Potter magic acts upon the symbolic nature of things rather than modifying the underlying laws of nature. (How, we're not sure, and it probably would have gotten in the way of the story Rowling wanted to tell.) It operates with abstract, higher-level concepts like "light or darkness" (in the Lumos/Nox spells) rather than "electromagnetic radiation of a specific wavelength", "food" rather than "substance containing carbs, fats, proteins, and micronutrients", "soul" rather than "electric activity in the brain" etc. From a literary, out-of-universe POV, there is no textual evidence for how HP magic would behave in limit cases, and the whole thing is beside the point anyway, because it would be competing with ink dedicated to Harry's woes and struggles, his life choices, his social universe, and the greater story about the battle between good & evil and the values of love, friendship and family. Now let's get back to where the extra atoms come from if you transfigure a smaller object into a larger object. Does it sound pedantic now?

    My personal preference would have been to see more of both of these explored. There's not enough spooky unexplainable stuff for the story to feel sufficiently magical to me, and one does have to wonder how come wizards don't lose their sanity more often (honestly, Luna is the only one whose psychology makes sense given the circumstances). On the other hand, the fact that there's a perfect correspondence between "obvious world-breaking questions about magic" and "questions about magic coincidentally not explored in the book" is, to me, a bit jarring; a bit as if the plot had been tailored to mask a paper-thin, inconsistent ontology. You definitely want to get your ontology right, first things first. If you don't, instead of the reader's imagination "filling in the gaps" wrt offscreen stuff, you get the reader to suspect that gaps in onscreen-ness probably do correspond to gaps in worldbuilding. (i.e. the author only chose to show the parts that "worked") Probably that's part of why this fanfiction scene is so big, it feels like there's so much more story to tell outside of canon.
     
  7. Ashton Knight

    Ashton Knight Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    Short answer: Maybe, but we can never be sure if we're right.

    Long answer: It's that time of the month, isn't it? FIrst off, let me start by saying that it is near impossible to change anyone's minds on the impact of muggles in the wizarding world. Mostly because it depends on pre conceived notions that people might have.

    While I may believe that science can be applied to magic, I compeltely undestand and accept why others might feel differently and can even concede a few points in their arguments.

    I'm not going to go into abstract physics and how science needs to accept certain limitations blah blah blah. Instead, I'm just going to make a few points and scurry on away.

    • If muggles had a billion+ years to study magic, is it really that easy to believe that they won't make any progress at all in understnading magic?
    • If mutants from X-Men can be explained by science, even someone like Wanda Maximoff, why can't wizards?
    • The definition of magic is "the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces." To wizards, the power they wield isn't mysterious. They more or less understand and even have people (DoM) researching it. So you could say that from their perspective, magic is actually science.
    One of the ways that I believe we can understand if there is a science to magic is by finding out who the first wizard/witch is. We know that muggleborns are descendants of squibs and therefore somewhere back in their history they were purebloods.

    The question is, who was the first person to possess magic and what caused them to possess magic in the first place? I beleive that is a key piece to understanding magic.
     
  8. MrSam

    MrSam Third Year

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    No, it can't

    (User was warned for this shitpost.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2016
  9. Tasoli

    Tasoli Minister of Magic

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    Really guys really? Don't you think you are going a bit too far by dismissing everything about space magic? We have plenty examples in other fiction where space magic actually works. I will even give an example what I think when you say space magic.

    They use Technosorcery to create a civilization, Warpcraft like spells, divination, teleportation is common among this race. I am ofcourse talking about Eldar of Warhammer 40k

    [​IMG]

    Will you look at that, Space Magic.

    There is also Cthulhutech where Magic is more common. Engels anyone? The Mecha created by summoning creatures -which you can call demons if you don't have any imagination- and crossing it with mortal creatures before slapping armor on top of it.

    [​IMG]

    Really DLP I am dissapoint that you guys are so prejudiced on this concept. I expected better.
     
  10. Ankan

    Ankan Professor

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    This is HP we are talking about. Space magic is almost as far from the theme of HP magic you can come.
     
  11. Tasoli

    Tasoli Minister of Magic

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    Not true Department of Mysteries has a Space room so they are researching this stuff at the very least.

    And when you consider Astronomy is not elective class but a core one like history and charms you get some idea that space is kinda important to wizards for some reason.
     
  12. Ashton Knight

    Ashton Knight Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    Okay, I agree with the majority of your points but this one is just pure speculation.

    In fact. if I recall, there is not a single mention of outer space in Harry Potter at all.
     
  13. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    I've always though the Harry Potter magical theory to be a bit like the Ptolemaic model of the universe: grounded on careful observation, incredibly complex and sophisticated, and able to predict future observations with high degree of accuracy, but at the same time fundamentally wrong and based on totally false premises.
     
  14. NuScorpii

    NuScorpii Professor

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    I don't think the question of whether the scientific method could be applied to Magic and whether muggle science has any place in the Wizarding world are very related.

    The DoM researches magic. We don't know if they're using the scientific method (likely not, as Taure already pointed out), but either way, I think it's safe to assume that whatever it is that they're doing, they're doing so successfully. We have no evidence and not enough data to conclude that application of another method would make a positive difference.

    Now, on whether it is useful for Wizards to study Muggle science, I would say there is no point. If there is a necessity for something in the Wizarding world, it could be achieved far more easily by studying magic than with any kind of study of Muggle science.

    It is impossible to know beforehand if a certain piece of scientific knowledge would even be applicable to Magic. Given that there is no way to know the exact piece of scientific information that may or may not be useful in the Wizarding world and the vast body of muggle scientific knowledge, it would be an extreme waste of time. Therefore, there is absolutely no point in studying Muggle science to achieve anything in the wizarding world.

    If there is some crucial piece of knowledge that needs to be known and is already in common with Muggle science, it would still be learnt by studying magic simply because magic trumps science. The converse is not true.

    Could the study of chemistry or physics help with transfiguration? Maybe, maybe not. Is it worth studying them to help with transfiguration? I don't think so. If there is something that needs to be improved in transfiguration, you either study transfiguration or magic in general.

    Want to go to space? Don't build a spaceship. Create a new form of magical transportation that takes you where you want to go.

    TL;DR
    There's no point to studying science in the Wizarding world.
     
  15. Tasoli

    Tasoli Minister of Magic

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    Hell knowing too much about Physics or Chemistry might cause Trasfiguration become harder for you because you stopped believing in Magic in favor of science.
     
  16. Quiddity

    Quiddity Squib ~ Prestige ~

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    What? Why would anything they learn about science remove their knowledge of magic?

    This isn't The Chronicles of Narnia, with subtle magic that Susan goes years without seeing. This is Harry Potter, where every adult can wave a wand and shape the world.
     
  17. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    For modern, wand waving magic you could probably apply the scientific method and come out with something workable. Science is merely the study of the world and how it works, and in narrative terms can simply mean the study of an internally consistent system, whether it follows the laws of physics or not.

    However, JKR has said that old magic like that which Lily used to protect Harry is not guaranteed to happen every time. If it's not repeatable it can't be modelled by the scientific method and is therefore fundamentally opposed to science.
     
  18. Eltrebor

    Eltrebor Squib

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    I think they're mutually exclusive unless you go with magic is just science so far advanced we can't understand it.
     
  19. Tasoli

    Tasoli Minister of Magic

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    Did I fucking stutter? I said belief, faith not knowledge.

    Science is not just a body of knowledge, it is a way of thinking.
     
  20. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer DLP Supporter Retired Staff

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    Disagree.

    Wrong. Einstein may have said "God doesn't roll dice", but nature is, on the most basic level, unpredictable. You can assign probabilities to things like radioactive decay and some fun quantum stuff, but you can't predict stuff.

    Just because the effects are different doesn't mean the laws are different. Water boils at 69°C - on Mt Everest. You weigh 0.5% less on the poles than on the Equator.

    When Vladimir Klitschko punches you, you go down. When you punch him, well, he'll probably punch you.

    a) It's not even certain that that's true for our magic-less universe
    b) Who says the rules for magic aren't?

    True, but mostly meaningless. If the casting of magic (by humans) is tied to the human psyche, there might be a connection.


    There are quite a few stories out there that bring order and structure to magic. Transfigurations, for example, are easier the more connections there are between the initial and the end state. Not on an atomar level, but regarding properties such as weight, size, use, thematical connection, and even linguistic similarity. Living things are more resistant to transfiguration than non-living, and magical things more than non-magical.

    From the books we can, in my opinion, deduce that magic is in fact reproducible and follows certain laws. We might not know the how and why of these laws, but we know they exist.

    On the topic of scientific research in the magical world, I think it probably looks a lot more like science in the 17th and 18th century did in the muggle world. Not because Magicals are inherently backwards, but simply because the subject matter is much more mysterious and fickle.

    Also, I don't think a story about a magical space ship is necessarily bad. Exploring the universe? Banging hot alien babes? Becoming a space pirate? Why the hell not.

    €dit: But yes to what NuScorpii said, Chemistry and Physics are probably not going to help you understand Magic(tm)
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
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