Canon Magic (in regards to Mr. Potter)​

For those of you who have been in the Assassin’s Creed WBA thread, you already have an idea about where I’m going with this. I want to discuss what canon magic is. Let’s start off with some things we know about the Hogwarts magic system. Seven years at Hogwarts is the end of all formal magical education. Anything beyond this seems to be field specific or research oriented.

Let’s say you wanted to be in the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. You get extra training, but it would most likely be the equivalent of joining MI5 or the FBI in that you get extra training from them even though you already have a degree and in some cases prior experience in other areas of law enforcement. You learn basic techniques for analyzing a crime scene, following a suspect, tactical formations for raiding buildings, basic law, how to properly build a case, etc. They don’t turn you into quick draw experts or men even capable of holding their own at most professional shooting tournaments.

I don’t see why this wouldn’t also be the case for the magical world as well. I’m sure their dueling does get better during the training, but it doesn’t put them on par with people in the dueling circuit. They would need to learn investigative techniques, work on disguising magic, learn the different strategies used in common situations, etc. I find most fanfiction authors tend to want to turn them into action movie versions of FBI agents who jump through the air firing two guns at the same time killing people left and right. Think Hot Fuzz before the action scenes.

Attaining NEWTs at Hogwarts is like gaining an advanced degree in magic. How advanced probably depends on your score, but it would probably be safe to assume a person who gets an O in NEWT Defense Against the Dark Arts would be the equivalent of having a Master’s degree or a Ph.D. in Defense. Anything beyond Hogwarts curriculum would be like doing post graduate work in the field consisting of research. Seeing as how there is no such thing as university for wizards, this is a fairly safe assumption. This might be further backed up by Dumbledore publishing a paper on some field of magic while he was still at Hogwarts. Now, don’t quote me on that, but if I recall correctly something to that effect was mentioned in one of the books.

Does this means that magical education ends at Hogwarts? No, there is independent research and other fields of magic which simply aren’t taught at Hogwarts that one could study on their own after graduation. Hogwarts, it would seem, is like a regular university in that it only teaches the certain areas of magic. Just as some universities don’t offer degrees in certain areas, the same can be said for Hogwarts. It could also be that some of the more advanced branches of magic require a foundation in other areas before you study them. It is sort of like how Hogwarts doesn’t let students take Care of Magical Creatures until third year. You really wouldn’t want completely untrained wizards who can’t even cast a levitation charm messing around with magical creatures that may require spells to help care for them as well as defend in case of an attack.

If I remember my PS and GoF correctly then there are books with spells for doing such things as clipping toenails of dragons. A basic understanding of charms, astronomy, transfiguration, defense, potions, and herbology could come in handy. If you know basic charms theory you could learn grooming charms with less difficulty and use transfiguration to create a cage or slightly better living environment. We know certain ingredients could be harvested during the grooming process to make potions, and if werewolves are anything to go by certain animals may behave differently depending on the stars/moon. Herbology could obviously factor into recognizing what you are feeding the animals/how to grow your own food for them, and defense is fairly straight forward. I doubt it is a coincidence that they cover magical creatures in the third year DADA class. My point is that, even though this is conjecture, it is fairly logical that some branches of magic require a foundation in others before you go getting yourself involved in them.

So we’ve established a couple of reasons why certain courses may not be taught at Hogwarts, I think it is time to move on to what is taught at Hogwarts. In canon, we see very little of the time spent in a classroom and even less time mentioned on the homework that students are required to do on a daily basis. What we do know is that students usually have to write a few feet of parchment on a given subject at a time, and that Harry tends to slack off on his homework which no doubt negatively affects his grades.

The students all have to get new text books each year and with names like “The Standard Book of Spells (Grade One)” you can bet there are multiple spells that Harry has to learn from each book in order to pass the class. We see him doing a different potion during each Potions class. Is it so unbelievable to infer that Harry might just have to perform a different spell each day for the practical portion of the class and that the homework is assigned to prepare students for the practical portion for the next class? How about one new spell a week on average since some spells probably require more time to learn than others? I don’t think it is either unreasonable or illogical. Unless you would rather Harry go from transfiguring a matchstick to a needle directly to vanishing complex objects learning nothing in the interim.

I’m going to throw out a wild idea hear that just maybe JKR only showed classes that taught spells that were going to be insanely important later on in the books i.e. levitation charm (troll), summoning charm (first task), patronus charm (dementors), unforgivable curses, etc. There are a few exceptions, but more often than not if it was brought up in class it was used again at a later point in time. Trying to confine Harry to the few spells we see him use in the books is grossly irresponsible in my opinion. You don’t need to explain away new spells by having scenes with Harry learning them or pointing out earlier on in the story that Harry is more studious than before. There a quite a few instances in the books where Harry or someone else uses a spell that they weren’t shown learning at an earlier time.

While we are at it, Harry is not behind in silent casting. I see so many people doing this in fics that take place post HBP. There is never any indication that he falls behind the rest of the class in silent casting. That goes right along with this concept that Harry is a below average wizard or merely an average wizard. The fact that he generally scores an ‘E’ or ‘O’ in the subjects that count may just indicate that he is in fact above average. Especially when you consider that for all intents and purposes Harry doesn’t spend nearly as much time working on theory as someone like Hermione does so he may just make up for his lack of interest in writing papers and memorizing every little detail about a spell with his ability to perform on the practical portion of the tests.

A lot of people seem to forget that Harry successfully cast a patronus charm during his third year. This is a charm that most NEWT students have trouble with casting. Look at how long it took Hermione to get the spell right during her fifth year with over a year of schooling combined with her own private studying of magical theory. She didn’t even have to cast the spell in front of a dementor!

Let’s also try to remember that as a fifth year Harry had sixth and seventh years willing to learn DADA from him. You could argue that Hogwarts was suffering from competent DADA instructors over the years, but that still doesn’t explain how Harry got an O on his OWLs. It also doesn’t explain how so many people got into NEWT DADA. I don’t see imposter Moody letting just anyone into that class nor so I see Umbridge on clear orders from the Ministry to discourage learning DADA letting just anyone into that class. Maybe just maybe, Harry knows quite a bit about DADA, and even though it isn’t explicitly stated in the books, he might occasionally read books on the subject outside of class for fun. *GASP* I know it is hard to believe isn’t it? That someone might read about a subject they’ve shown more than a passing interest in outside of class is mind blowing! At the very least, all of the additional studying Harry did during fourth, fifth, and sixth year could be used to explain away his knowledge of some spells.

Yes, Hogwarts has had some bad Defense professors, but I seem to recall the main complaint about Quirrell being the stutter not competence like fanon insists. Lupin and imposter Moody were noted for being above average instructors, and Umbridge doesn’t really count since Harry taught most of the bloody school that year. That leaves one year of incompetence that wasn’t as incompetent as some made out. Lockheart was a joke, but even he points out that he had to be very careful when writing those books to make sure he got the spells and events just right so as to not arouse suspicion. Those who insult the magic in his books are letting their feelings about the man/his obvious flair for talking about himself in his books to influence their views on the accuracy of the spells discussed in the books.

Fanon is responsible for way too many misconceptions in regards to magic and the characterization of Harry. I think the most damning evidence for how good at DADA Harry is comes from the beginning of DH. I’d look it up, but my book is currently packed away in the attic. Now, if I remember correctly during that broom chase Harry busts out some crazy fire spell which essentially wasn’t something he cast so much as it was a reaction from Harry winning the duel of brother wands, and no one doubted that Harry cast the spell. Furthermore, I believe they actually assumed he was being modest when he tried to pass it off as a fluke.

There seems to be this running theme in fanon to pass Harry off as an idiot or a ridiculously lucky individual. At a point in my fanfiction career, I would have said the same, but I started to think about it. One or two events that turn out in your favor is one thing. Surviving the killing curse, bypassing the traps set by professors, fighting Quirrell possessed by Vodemort (even if he was cursed by unicorn’s blood), driving back a shit load of dementors, kicking ass during the triwizard tournament (first two tasks he did the heavy lifting on), dueling Voldemort and not dying when he is clearly tossing AK’s with intent to kill you, winning a war of wills with said dark lord, escaping a bunch of Death Eaters attempting to curse you while grabbing your classmate’s body and bringing him back with you, last uninjured man standing during the Department of Mysteries raid, avoiding attempts to slip you potions on multiple occasions, knowing that Malfoy was up to something, and generally kicking ass using only disarming, stunning, and shield charms on multiple occasions makes you either the luckiest man on earth or just maybe you have a bit of skill and are the only person who doesn’t recognize it.

Finally, a look at Mr. Potter’s learning curve. Hermione seems all bent out of shape because Harry is using the Half-blood Prince’s book. Doesn’t that seem a bit odd considering he has beaten her in DADA quite often? I don’t think it is the doing the potions a different way bit that got on her nerves either. I think it was more to the point that she was worried about what happened with Ginny in second year happening to Harry with this book. Now, hear me out on this one. Harry went from following the recipe for the potion given in the book producing a substandard potion to following the slightly modified recipe in the book creating a beyond perfect by book standards potion. He followed this up by learning a bunch of curses from said potions book. So I don’t think it is a stretch to say that she was concerned that the book bewitched him or that Voldemort was still influencing his mind given his unusual study habits in a subject he used to be bad at and not care for in the slightest.

It is obvious that Harry is not on Dumbledore or Riddle level of magic, but it isn’t for a lack of talent. The patronus charm in his third year showed exactly how much potential he has. His reluctance to kill as shown at the start of DH with the broom chase should not be seen as an indication of the knowledge he possesses. He isn’t an idiot or even average. He just isn’t Dumbledore. He did reveal during DH that he was such a failure at the mind arts as he perhaps let on during the fifth and sixth books. This is shown by him completely blocking out Tom during the camping trip. He, Hermione, and Ron all seem capable of casting the spells that prevent them from being found magically by a man capable of casting a taboo on his name. That if nothing else should point to how competent they are. Harry is lazy, but for all of his laziness he is still an above average wizard who is capable of learning some crazy magic when puts his mind to it. He sees Dumbledore ‘feel’ magic once, and he proceeds to do the same thing in regards to the horcrux in DH.

Quite a bit of this is conjecture, but it is what I consider to be the most logical conjecture that you can come up with in regards to the magic that Harry is capable of using. It is no doubt more valid than the idea that Harry only knows the few bits of magic we see him use in canon.

[FONT=&quot]I'd really like to see what other think about this. It doesn't have to be about Harry either. If you just want to talk about canon magic in general and different theories you may have on the subject feel free. So...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thoughts? [/FONT]

 

Woah woah dude!

The NEWTS are an exam you give in the last year of school.

Even if you got a Double-O in your NEWTS, all you'd have done is get a smashing score in SCHOOL! Not a damn Ph.D.

The above doesn't happen. In fact, Harry is more than willing to open the link between him and Voldemort to find out more about his search for the Elder Wand.

And the only reason they were safe was because no one searched for them in areas they inhabited. Oh and also, of the all three, Hermione did all the casting.

 

That's not canon. 7th year is the end of formal schooling the magical world. Ph.D. is the end of formal schooling in the muggle world. I fail to see where you get your ideas from unless you just dislike the idea of 7 years of learning a particular subject making you an expert in it if you score high enough. There is most certainly nothing in canon to support your claim. Human to animal tranfiguration is covered in the last years of Hogwarts, and unless I'm mistaken it is considered the hardest part of transfiguration that you can do. Certainly further study would allow to improve your control and learn the esoteric parts of the magic, but according to JKR, you've learned transfiguration at the highest level. This doesn't mean that you've learned everything there is to know, but that you have learned the major points of the subject.

EDIT:
He shuts his mind off from Voldemort after Dobby dies. Go reread Deathly Hallows.

Here: "His scar burned, but he was master of the pain; he felt it, yet was apart from it. He had learned control at last, learned to shut his mind to Voldemort, the very thing Dumbledore had wanted him to learn from Snape." ~Deathly Hallows chapter 24 pg 478 in my book. I went and dug the damn thing out.

I'm not about to look through all the camping scenes to attempt to find a line confirming that Harry casts the protections, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that he did at some point.

 

Harvest, to start with I think you're equating things incorrectly;

Uh... because it exists in the muggle world does not mean there must be the equivalent in the magical. There is nothing to suggest in canon that either of the above statements are true - in fact, quite the opposite. The Department of Magical Law Enforcement is exactly that; Law Enforcement. It's a law department, featuring police and detective equivalents for certain, the Misuse of Muggle Artefacts office, Wizengamot Administration and (probably) the Improper/Underage Use of Magic department. Such is not the work of intelligence agencies. Equally, an O grade NEWT is going to be more equal to an A-Level or diploma IB than a degree, just as OWLS are equivalent to GCSE's or middle IB's. Why have further and further education in such a small culture, when (as you've acknowledged) field-specific training or apprenticeship is likely to take place anyway?

Ach, no it isn't, it's a school. You're approaching from the wrong direction.

When I began responding to this I underestimated the volume of text, so I will come back to it another day. I don't have time this evening to decipher and counter any arguments that are swamped in the exposition.

That said, and extremely important debating point is the Feather argument, which Taure, Harvest and I touched upon in the HPAC thread... this one is important and we're in mid discussion so I'll take the op to respond. If the laws of physics play no part whatsoever in magic, what are the limitations? If physics have no hand in magic, why do first year wizards and witches start on a feather - something that floats relatively easily as it is?

If you follow the logic that the basic physics of an object - that is, the size, balance and weight - play no part in how difficult it is to perform magic on it, there is essentially no limit. If physical restrictions on the to-be-levitated object are irrelevant, why a) would it be the first spell you teach first years, and b) would someone attacking say, Hogwarts, not simply levitate the castle up a few feet and drop it?

I can't understand the reasoning; to use the cart-in-mud example, if being stuck in mud would not hinder a huge cart from being levitated, it is along that line of reasoning that an iron ring set in concrete can simply be levitated out, whatever it's stuck in be damned. If you counter with 'the concrete would lift too' there is a physical relationship between charm, target and environment. If you counter with 'the concrete would break' there is a physical relationship between charm, target and environment. If you counter with 'the iron ring would levitate out without effecting the concrete' you haven't just performed leviation, you've performed a switching spell (transfig.) and displaced the iron with air and vice versa. If you levitate a physical object, it defies sense to believe that object isn't still interacting in a physical way with its environment. Conversely, it's going to be easier to levitate a feather if it's in an updraft, for the same reasons.

Actually it isn't, even if you ignore or counter the above. First of all, in transfiguration distinctions are made not just in spell effect, but in target. Even to the point of vertebrae/invertebrae transfiguration, one being more complicated than the other in physical complexity only. That isn't a different type of transfiguration, but rather a physical distinction, which according to Taure doesn't exist when you're talking about magic.

I don't have the time to trawl through the HP e-books and find a dozen examples, but I'll post the first two extracts I have found from The Seven Potters chapter in The Deathly Hallows;

So how is there no physics involved in magic?

@Taure: The transfiguration argument I'll have a think about and save for tomorrow.

 

THIS WILL NOT END WELL - MARK MY WORDS.

 

I read the first three paragraphs, lolwut'd and skipped the rest.

Here is the problem with your 'NEWS ARE ADVANCED DEGREES' bullshit; even Marcus Flint (who in canon had to resit a year at Hogwarts) left with NEWTs. The Weasley twins are the only people who we ever hear of leaving before they complete them. They are the wizarding A-Levels.

Magical Universities are in no way broached by canon, there could well be, for all we know. That said, even if there aren't, it doesn't mean that by the seventh year of Hogwarts, with a couple of NEWTs under your belt you know everything worth knowing about transfiguration, because it's blatantly untrue.

The way I see it, OWLs are enough for wizards to live their day to day lives, but only the really thick/bad ones. The Weasley Twins do alright, but they've got a definitive line of work and there's an awful lot of canon that explains why they can get away without having NEWTS, which are by and large, the qualifications that prove you have a reasonable chance of employment out of Hogwarts.

TLDR; Wrong.

 

Basically, I'm with enembee, except with this - Rowling specifically stated in interviews there ARE no wizarding universities. Which sucks, because it raises the implications of how on earth one would accumulate the necessary knowledge to become a specialist or master in a particular field.

I mean, from canon, it's been cited that it was typical for most aspiring wizards to take trips around the world amassing knowledge, or at least that was true in the days of Dumbledore (I suspect the rise of Grindelwald and the two wars with Voldemort might have put a damper on such behavior), which seems to me like a combined 'trip-to-Europe/Australia/elsewhere' that most students will take after graduating and a research expedition. But you have to wonder what sort of things a trip like that would entail, other than wandering aimlessly. I think I've only seen one fic that even considers how a trip like this would go post-Hogwarts (and it was really shitty to boot).

But you have to wonder, for wizards fresh out of Hogwarts or Durmstrang or wherever, what do they do if they don't decide to take jobs in shops/Gringotts, play professional Quidditch, or work at the Ministry/Daily Prophet? If a person wanted to pursue magical research and be recognized in publications like, for instance, Transfiguration Today, where would he get resources or funding to do research, and where is the active peer review? What qualifications would one need to acquire to teach at Hogwarts besides the approval of the Headmaster, and where would one get such qualifications? Did Severus Snape or Minerva McGonagall have to make advances in their fields or another receive distinct qualification before teaching? Or take Bill Weasley - where did he get the training to become a curse-breaker for Gringotts, and who paid for that training?

I guess I'm a little disappointed that the 'post-Hogwarts' world is so sloppily defined, with so many unanswered questions that simply went unasked because Harry was never really thinking about it. It's kind of sad, but the insane 'nobles/lords-and-ladies' society that Sesc loves and I can't tolerate actually seems to make a little more sense than a more 'modern' approach to a post-Hogwarts setting.

If anything, I'd like to see locations of a higher educational calling and research for witches and wizards seeking to learn more about magic, or funded research expeditions into magical society and culture, or sponsored summits where magical theoreticians debate and discuss the nature of magic, whether it is based upon a 'magical core' or a more 'Taurean' theory.

But there I go on my dreamy little tangents.

 

I was unaware of this. Makes me a little sad.

 

In interviews, JKR has stated that Hogwarts is it magically speaking. As for Marcus Flint, unless you have hard evidence via canon that his grades are that terrible that isn't hearsay please feel free to quote it. It also doesn't state how he did on his NEWTs or how many he took. I fail to see how completing seven years equates to doing well. Just because the Weasley twins are the only people we've heard of doesn't mean they were the only ones.

I'm just looking at this from what JKR has said in interviews and in the books. I'm not saying in makes the most sense. I'm just saying that it appears to be the case. This could actually be a valid point of debate though should you contend there is another form of education that exists as informal training. I still say by virtue of there being no evidence for them existing that at the very least both options are equally valid especially since we know NEWTs and OWLs are the basis for obtaining employment.

I, respectfully, disagree about MLE. We know that they train in such things as stealth and tracking via Tonks. It is also probably safe to assume they are taught to recognize the effects of certain potions as well as a bit of on the job training. If all they did was bust down doors dueling people and taking out rogue magical creatures then the whole society would be in jail or you'd have an MLE of like 5 people. In such a small society, I cannot see how such a large department would possibly do more enforcing than actual detective work. It isn't realistic.

@GL I'm going to handle your example that you cited as basis for physics affecting magic by saying this: It was an enchanted flying motorbike which if it is made anything like brooms is tamper resistant. Hagrid being a half giant has a higher resistance to magic based attacks as well. You are confusing magical resistance with physics.

Trolls obviously don't wield magically enchanted clubs thus easy to levitate even though the troll would be quite resistant should you attempt to levitate him.


Personally, I hope this does end well and Blaise is wrong. I'd like to see different takes on ideas for this shared in an intelligent manner. I freely admit that I'm extrapolating about certain things, and I don't particularly like the conclusions I've drawn from canon about magical education. Hell, Dumbledore and Riddle were beyond what most wizards (even those that judged the NEWTs) thought was possible before they left Hogwarts.

 

I think you're confusing DMLE and Auror Office here. They're separate entities - the DMLE is the equivalent of the Crown Prosecution Service, or DAs Office in America.

Also, I think there's a fair amount of canon evidence to show that Aurors are considered pretty proficient duellers.

Yes and no. I don't think the comparison to degrees is a good one (because they're clearly meant to mirror A-levels/Scottish Highers), but I agree that if you have a NEWT in, say, Transfiguration, and can perform everything in it very well, you've pretty much got a mastery of the subject. By the time they've got to the end of NEWTs, it looks like they've covered all possible transfigurations.

I agree that Harry is, in general, an above average wizard. However, this still doesn't make put him in the class of great wizards like Snape, the Marauders, Lily, Bill Weasley, Shaklebolt, McGonagall, Flitwick, and definitely not the prodigies like Dumbledore and Voldemort.

What is it down to then? It can't be laziness alone. You'll note that when exceptionally intelligent people are lazy, they still do extremely well - just not as well as they would be if they applied themselves.

James and Sirius are great examples of extremely talented but lazy wizards. They didn't study but still got Os.

Harry is a good example of an above average but lazy wizard.

Not analogous at all.

Not evidence that he has mastered Occlumency. By the description given, it sounds like it's unique to his scar connection to Voldemort.

We can only conjecture. However, just to demonstrate that there are alternative explanations, here's one: feathers come from flying things, and as such have a greater propensity to float. They "remember" that they like to be airborne.

No. There are no limits set by physics. There can still be limits intrinsic to magic (e.g. "cannot reawaken the dead"). However, I am of the opinion that there are no limits, not even by magic (we see loads of examples of so called magical laws being broken). Rather, I think the limit is not in magic but in wizards. Magic can do anything, wizards cannot.

There is some evidence for the "no natural limits" argument. You mention why people don't just cast spells over the entirety of Hogwarts. They do. In DH, McGonagall animates every suit of armour in the entire castle with one spell. The Taboo is a spell that covers an entire nation (at the least).

Your quotes and other arguments all misunderstand my point (that magic suspends physics). I am not saying that the moment you cast a spell all of physics in the entire universe is suspended. A spell has a specific effect, and it performs that effect without concern for physics. However, this doesn't mean that the object isn't still interacting with its physical environment. In the case of the ring it seems that there is no definite answer.

We could say that when you levitate it the spell is successful but the spell's effect is not general sufficient. For this case you would need not just a levitation charm, but a levitation charm and a breaking charm (for successful levitation you need to suspend not just gravity but also break the electrostatic attraction holding the metal to the concrete. The levitation charm only does the former, so will fail.)

In the case of a feather all you're suspending is gravity acting on the feather. There's only one law at play.

Your mistake is that you're continuing to think of a levitation charm as a force of lift. If this was indeed the case it would be that it would strain against the concrete. I do not think this is so. Rather, I think it's just a case of "make this thing float". It doesn't do it via any means, it just does it by magic.

It's like saying "how does the killing curse kill?". There is no how. It just makes you dead.

In the case of the metal in the concrete, I would simply say that the metal is not a valid object for the spell. It would be like shooting the killing curse at a rock. The spell has still worked, in that you successfully cast it, but it will have no effect because the rock is not an applicable object for the spell to take.

 

Couple of things I'd like to point out:

The DMLE is not the same thing as Aurors. The DMLE's hitwizards, though more formidable sounding are tasked with minor law-breaking, whilst the Aurors are tasked with tackling Dark Wizards.

Just because Hogwarts is all of the learning offered to wizards, does not logically dictate it encompasses everything to a degree level.

Decided I had nothing better to do, so went back and read it all, here are a summation of failures I caught:

• Comparing Aurors to FBI - Comparing Aurors to FBI is complete fail. I shouldn't have to explain this but why on earth would they be anything similar? Unless you consider the X-Files as Harry Potter canon. The FBI deal with criminals, the Aurors deal with wizards gone off the deep end. That is, one deals with muggles with no super natural powers, the other deals with black-magic wielding, spontaneously teleporting, badasses.
• Raising Duelling Circuit - Never once is anything mentioned about the abilities of the Duelling circuit. Likewise, nothing is ever mentioned (really) about the abilities of the Aurors. We see two get their asses handed to them by Dumbledore, but who isn't going to be? This is a complete fanon argument.
• Hogwarts = University - Highlighted best above, but seriously, a university takes a student on for 3-5 years and (at least in the UK) teaches them either in one or two subjects. How is Hogwarts anything like a University?
• Advanced Branches of Magic - There is nothing to suggest that there are any other 'Advanced' branches of magic taught at Hogwarts other than Alchemy and The Dark Arts. Both of which are not taught at the school for clear reasons.
• Third Year Optionals - I find this far more likely a reference to the fact that at a similar age in UK schools (possible even that age for JKR), pupils are for the first time given the option to take elective classes.
• Above Average Harry's OWL Results - There is nothing in canon to suggest that 'Acceptable' is the average mark for students at Hogwarts. So this is a ridiculous premise.
• Harry's NEWT-level Patronus - I agree with you here, partly. This is an example of Harry being motivated by an external pressure, the same goes with the DA. I'm not sure it's an example of Harry being an above-average wizard or just an example of what any average wizard can do when properly motivated. Put it this way, if every few minutes at random someone throws a ball at your face, you're very quickly going to learn the reflexes to avoid them, or spend a lot of time in pain.
• Quirrel - Was a shit DADA teacher. I can't be arsed skimming through pages and pages of Harry Potter canon, but even if he was capable of competently teaching the syllabus, can you imagine how fucking horrible and boring it'd be to be taught by someone who can barely string three words together?
• Lockheart - Don't even get me started on Lockheart. Although I am a huge fan of his, we can pretty much accept that he was a shit teacher. Careful about using correct spells? You mean like the one that he claimed can revert a werewolf back into human form. (The Marauders, Adult Lupin & Snape & every Werewolf that ever existed never thought of using this?)? How about the brilliantly named 'Transmogrifian Torture'. Or how about 'Peskipiksi Pesternomi'? Point made I think.

TLDR; Still Wrong.

 

On the topic of Flint: that he left with NEWTs doesn't mean he left with good NEWTs. A fail mark is still a mark. It's like how someone takes an A-Level only to get an E. C and above is considered a pass mark, but technically so long as you get a mark at all you "have an A Level". It's only if you score so lowly that you get a U that you don't have an A Level.

This seems to be the case with Flint.

In fact, we know competitive duelling is banned.

This (plus Occlumency and Legilimency).

Yes. I find it much more likely that they get lower than A. (E.g. most wizards not being able to cast a shield charm.)

 

Except that he repeated his final year. Which means that a mark at a particular level is considered a fail. I don't see anyone, even someone as stupid as Flint, scoring lower than a Troll.

Still gives no comparison between Aurors and professional duellists.

I actually find this one of the more troubling points in canon. We see that with adequate instruction (Harry in the DA) that most wizards and witches seem to be able to perform fairly advanced DADA. Yet when the Weasley's produce shield-bearing clothing, people flock to buy them.

Leading to one of two rationales; either DADA instruction at Hogwarts has been incredibly poor for a long time (very possible). Or they figured that owning an item of clothing with a permanent shield charm placed upon it, with no casting delay, could be an incredibly useful thing with Death Eaters roaming the country (far more likely).

 

We don't really know what getting Troll involves. I think it's possible for someone like Flint to do very badly indeed. Like, scoring 10%. If people are that stupid in the Muggle world (and they are) they can be in the magical world.

I know. I was agreeing with you

Indeed. The problem is that IIRC Fred and George explicitly say they can't cast the charms. One explanation is that they would have been able to learn them had they applied themselves to it, but that they considered it a skill they didn't need (after all, what percentage of Muggles can effectively defend themselves?).

 

You just couldn't resist, could you.

 

I didn't say Hogwarts was like a university in every respect. I meant in respect to the level of education you receive regarding a specific subject. I don't think you are going to improve in leaps in bounds in transfiguration or charms after Hogwarts. You might learn most detail about things and become better at it, but JKR has set up this educational system in such a way that Hogwarts covers pretty much everything you need to know.

I accept quite a few of the criticisms you mentioned as valid insofar as we don't have enough information to determine what exactly DMLE does on a day to day basis. I know Aurors are dark wizard catchers, but I didn't exactly mean just them when I was talking about magical law enforcement. It was supposed to be more of a general statement. I'd see them as a mixture of FBI/SWAT. Mind you I have no proof for this and it is pure conjecture on my part based upon what I remember from the books.

Lockheart may have had his fair share of BS in his books, but if all of the spells he supposedly used to do the things he did was wrong someone would have called him on it a long time ago. I didn't say he was a good teacher nor did I say Quirrell was a good teacher. Just that they weren't exactly Umbridge. I'm sure Quirrell covered the material even if you could barely understand a word he said.

 

Agreed. If you look around (hard), you'll find at least 2 threads where this has been argued in great detail <_<

One was about Snape and James Potter, IIRC, the other was about canon spellcasting in general.

 

I concede this point, people are sometimes amazingly thick.

It could also be explained by the fact that Fred and George didn't know what they were talking about. How many times do you purchase things from a shop with an explanation to the shopkeeper about why you needed said item?

I don't buy the idea that nobody in the wizarding world needs to know how to defend themselves, they live in a society where people with highly suspect mental states walk around with a deadly weapon on their person at all times. If I lived in a society where it was the norm that people were slightly unhinged and carried swords, I would certainly learn how to use my own to defend myself, as would, I imagine, most people.

Well for a start, theoretically A-Levels are the standard of education required to seek gainful employment in the United Kingdom, so I don't see why you insist on comparing something that is quite clearly based on A-Levels to the standard of in-depth education a University degree would provide. Indeed, if anything this thread has gone to convince me in completely the opposite direction. At what point in a student's education at Hogwarts are they taught to cast spells that affected every object in the immediate vicinity (dozens of suits of armour coming to life)? At what point are they taught how to curse a single word (The Taboo), how to manipulate time with magic (timeturners), how to find traces of magic (ala Dumbledore), how to protect their mind with magic (occulmency), how to investigate rare magical artefacts (as Dumbledore does with the hallows, as the unspeakables do in the DoM), at what point are they taught how to use Alchemy?

I can't help but feel that these things are some of the many topics that a Wizarding University might broach.

In my opinion, Hogwarts is a school and nothing more. It is designed to each a wizard how to be a wizard in a wide variety of topics, but none of them in great detail. Other, more complex magic obviously exists in huge quantities (consider the size of the DoM and the sheer amount of inexplicable bullshit) that are never even broached (in as far as we know) at Hogwarts.

So you're right in one respect, Hogwarts takes a young wizard and teaches them everything they'll probably need to know to have a well-rounded education and to go out and be a successful wizard. But it is in no way analogous to a University, which takes a person with a well rounded education and gives them very detailed and specific tutoring on one or two subjects.

 

Is it? I was under the impression that the charms professor used to duel competitively. Of course, I could be reading way too much fanfiction.

I'll disagree with you on the Occlumency point though. It states he finally learned what Dumbledore wanted him to learn from Snape which I took to mean Occlumency. It goes on to say Dumbledore would have said it was the power of love that was the key to mastering it. This would fit why Snape was so good at keeping the dark lord out of his mind (Lily).

 

Yes, in GoF, Percy talks about the dueling ban that Transylvania was unwilling to sign. And as for Flitwick being a professional duelist, it is rumored according to Hermione, something that is not substantiated in canon.