We talked about this in the IRC for a few minutes and then I searched the forums for a topic like this.
If there is one and I missed it, feel free to close the thread.

Alright, we've all (well, most of us I hope) read fics where Dumbledore holds no inhibitions towards killing a few pawns to hold his position of power. In these various fics, we get different reactions from the public and from Harry's little group. What I want to know is this...

• What could cause Dumbledore to snap? (At this point he would be openly killing like Voldemort, not in a sneaky/manipulative way)
• What would be the public reaction? (Dumbledore is the equivalent of Voldemort in the wizarding world's eye, would they try to stop him, or would they cower in fear?)
• What would the people closest to Dumbledore think? (You know, the staff at Hogwarts, the Order, some of the students...)

I just thought this would be an interesting discussion, but it may also help some people who are writing fics that feature a crazed Dumbledore. I've read too many stories that seem to have either an unrealistic reaction or an unrealistic Dumbledore. Oh, and try not to deviate too far from canon... in case you can't remember what happened in the books, this means that Dumbledore is not already killing people, and he is fairly stable mentally. This also means that most wizards in the wizarding world are cowards, and that Voldemort isn't likely to team up with Dumbledore because of his huge ego.

 

First thing that I think would make Dumbledore snap, aside from having all his lemon drops stolen, is simply old age. The man is 150 year old and deemed to mad (Even Percy thinks so in the first book).

As for the public reaction...I think it'd be the same as with Voldemort. There will be some who oppose but the majority will cower and hope the storm will pass. In the end, it would be power struggle between Dumbledore and Voldemort with the wizarding world as prize.

I think the Order would become for Dumbledore what the Death Eaters are for Voldemort; his army. As for staff and students, some might join Dumbledore, just like some of the staff and students join Voldemort.

 

I think no matter what, dumbledore would never be public about his killings. Should he be effected by something in a serious way then i think he would continue to kill in a subtle way. He has too much to lose and is too intelligent to go public. Even if he was evil, he could do much more damage in his current position than if he was to abandon it all and go on a killing spree.

 

I have to agree with KANE on this one... Dumbledore may be manipulative, sneaky, and an overall bastard, but he is not stupid. Public killings and large scale attacks are more for the fear generated during the attacks, where a high profile targets killed in a sneaky way tends to generate more fear when the bodies are found. It leaves the question of who killed them and how they were able to do so in the first place. Dumbledore is smart enough to realize this so if something did send him off the deep end, he would most likely use this method, maybe going so far as to 'help' others track down the killer.

 

Good job, you guys managed to post intelligent responses that had nothing to do with the original question.
I applaud you. */me applauds*

The question was "What would cause Dumbledore to snap," not, "Would Dumbledore snap." I'd appreciate if you actually paid attention to the topic post because I am actually interested in seeing peoples' opinions on this. Also, your comment about Dumbledore not killing openly... what part of 'snapped/gone mentally insane' do you not get? he isn't thinking clearly, who knows what could be going through his mind.

Now that my annoyance is down to manageable levels, can we please get back on topic? BTW Ryuu Ken, thank you for actually posting something relevant to the original question.

 

Dumbledore is too old and experienced to snap just like that, it'd have to be something really big.

The most logical way would be through disease (Alzheimer’s?) or a curse.

Maybe by breaking some kind of unbreakable vow or a life debt?

Torture could be another possibility (Azkaban?) but that seems less likely.

Maybe by gaining possession of something corruptible... like a dark magic object... Or, in a crossover, the One Ring of power?

How about he has some sort of psychosis and is forced to take medication to keep the "voices" away, making him only slightly barmy, instead of a total psycho. The meds are, of course, inside his lemon drops. Then, something happens to take his drops away... Say, he and a bunch of his students end up trapped inside Hogwarts or Grimmauld place during the winter holydays... and he doesn’t have access to his lemon drops. He's slowly driven insane and starts killing kids one by one... In some sick way preferably, like ramming toys up their arses or something...

That's all I can think off right now...

 

[FONT=&quot]Well, the potion in HBP. First, lets say he never died. That potion caused a very strong Occlumens to snap, and beg for his mommy.

We can say that they chewed his mental shields away, and then let loose a torrent of memories, pain, and other nastiness.

He can snap from either having his shields gone, you can say they held away all his "bad" impulses. This would explain why he is perpetually happy. The other way is the pain, he reaches his limits of pain, and he just snaps.



[/FONT]

 

That would make a hilarious comedy...may I use it in my story?

 

Yeah, sure.

 

I think if you want any sort of reasonable canon Dumbledore, you need to keep him away from killing the kiddies no matter how much he snaps. I also think he would never kill directly. He may send them into a useless battle where they stand little to no chance of making it through alive, but he is intelligent. Its ind of like those fics where Voldemort does nothing but make stupid plans and crucio his followers - Voldemort is supposed to be intelligent.

As for why he would snap, I think it would have to be gradual (and by that I don't mean 6 chapters gradual) He starts off because he has to choose between two people's lives. (Who could blame him no matter how close to them he is) Then maybe a prophecy here or there that are no light (Ir The world will end if this person lives type thing) Moving onto sending people into a battle/quest where he knows he is going to loose a good number of people but he feels the quest is necessary. I think it has to be a slow progression of seeing people as people to slowly seeing them as slightly less important in the overall war effort. Combine this with him being old, fighting the third big war of his life time, having to handle school, the ministry and the Wiz. I could slowly see hiim losing perspective. If part way through this you give him some sort of dementia.

Considering how barmy he always acts and how much he really does have on his shoulders, I think most people would overlook a few deaths here and there and a few mistakes here and there. I don't think anything short of a lot of "mistakes" closely together would get him caught and then only enough to start looking deeper.

 

If Dumbledore went evil...the Wizarding World would be fucked.

Dumbledore is naturally at about the same power level as Voldemort, who went through all those "transformations".

If he went through a couple power rituals, created a better body for himself (or just took a couple sips of the Elixer of Life), and shed his desire to avoid killing, he would be unstoppable.

He'd be at an unprecedented power level, higher than Voldemorts, and armed with 130+ years of knowledge.

The man would hand asskicking on large silver platters.

 

The man has seen more than a hundret years of bloodshed and killing. When people aren't killing each other they try to backstab to improve their own position. This is also the reason why he became headmaster. He hoped that he could influence the children to make them into better humans. However he fails. Year after year he watches young adults leaving his school which are just as bad as their parents. Now he sees Harry. He is his last hope. Without a thought about himself he risks his life year after year in order to safe and help.

Option 1:
Harry gets killed. His one hope for humanity lost! All the years of murder and bloodshed he has seen resurface and he simply looses himself to revenge. I guess that his priorities would switch from protecting to destroying his enemies and above of all the person who killed Harry (Voldie most likely). He doesn't care about himself anymore. All that matters is revenge!


Option 2:
But if even Harry fails and falls into the darkness he might become desperate. I guess it would be less of a Insane!Dumbledore and more like a Dumbledore who has simply has lost his faith in humanity. In his believe that he is now the only one who can bring down Voldemort he searches for a way to destroy Voldemort. However when ever he comes close to a solution he has to stop because the magic is dark. As the killings get worse and worse he finaly decides to bring the ultimate sacrifice. In an last try to stop the dark lord he dwelves into the dark arts. He knows that his soul will get corrupted and that he will be forever changed but that doesn't stop him. He takes a poison which leaves him six months to take Voldie out so that he can't become the next dark lord. What followes is the ultimate showdown.


In both Options I guess that the order would still help Dumbledore.
The puplik would probably think that Dumbledore is doing the right thing since they have become accustomed to that.

Guess I kinda went overboard ^^.

 

Wow ghst.san, that's really good. I don't even think you need to go as far as revenge or killing Harry though. All that has to happen is that he no longer believes that Harry is the embodiment of good and "all that should be" in the world. (This could be a result of anything really - you don't even need an evil or dark Harry, just one that Dumbledore views that way) and voi la! Dumbledore snaps. If after all this time he has decided that the world is corrupt and he pins his last hope on someone he sees as failing him, I could see a Dumbledore that believes that most people need to be wiped out so that the world could start a-fresh.

 

What could cause Dumbledore to snap?: The pressure because of too much work. He's headmaster, in the wizengamot, involved in the ministry, head of the order. It's just too much. Then he forgets to take his lemon drops (with a calming potion or sth. like this), McGonagall comes in his office and reminds him to do sth. else and he just kills her. But I think it's more likely like ghst.san said.

What would be the public reaction?: I think first they would do nothing. And later they are too frightened to do much. Like they do with Voldemort. If he just kills Death Eaters, I think they would think Dumbledore does good work.

What would the people closest to Dumbledore think?: If he just runs through the castle (or the ministry) and kills people they would think he's gone insane like everybody else. If he just kills Death Eater in a quest for revenge they would help him I think.

 

Apart from Fanfiction, which basically means the books, has Dumbledore ever made any statements regarding his view on killing?
I can think of two instances where he might form an opinion.
1) In OOTP, when he is duelling Voldemort in the Ministry, he uses a spell and Voldemort says something along the lines of, 'Not seeking to kill me?", and Dumbledore replies that there are far worse things than death.
This could be interpreted as either a reluctance to kill or a darker side to Dumbledore that is rarely seen. There are things worse than death? Prehaps he was referring to a Dementors Kiss, which would be much more horrible than a death, so if Dumbledore was trying to Stun Voldemort to feed him to the Dementor's....then isn't that basically killing him in a much more horrible way?
2) At the start of HBP, when Dumbledore comes to pick up Harry from Privet Drive, Harry mentions that if he were to die, then he would take as many Death Eaters as he could with him, possible Voldemort as well, and Dumbledore seems to applaud the idea. That is definately not the actions of a man who is totally opposed to killing others.

I know that a lot of writers portray him as a goody-goody who believes in second chances and refuses to kill, but that is just Fanfiction. Personally, if it came to it, I can see Dumbledore killing somebody. I can't seem him just walking down Diagon Alley one day and deciding the Avada Kedavra a nearby person, but I can see him killing a Death Eater that might try to kill him, especially if one of the students of Hogwarts was available.


Still, it really doesn't matter what Canon says anymore, since he's dead. I was really pissed off with JKR about that...Dumbledore was easily my second favourite character, both to read and write. That moment was the worst part of the book, except for the Harry/Ginny romance fluffy crap. Apart from those two events, I pretty much enjoyed HBP.

Um...I seem to have wandered off topic.

Yes, I think Canon!Dumbledore would kill if he had to, and it's not totally unbelievable for him to kill Death Eaters.

There
Sincerely,
Shezza88

 

What would cause Albus to snap could be:

Either the ministry arrest Harry and sends him to Askaban, charging him of murder. Or should Harry actually turn dark.

Either way, it's highly unlikely for Dumbledore to snap.

The public would believe what the ministry tells them, as it happened in previous ocations.

The order and the staff is likely to follow him due to the fact that if they believed in him so far, why should they stop doing so?

 

If we're talking about canon!Dumbledore snapping to the point of killing indiscriminately, then you need to completely change his character. Whether it's some sort of deranged psychosis brought on by potions or whatever, there won't be any semblance of the canon!Dumbledore we know left in him.

Yes canon!Dumbledore I can see killing when absolutely necessary and/or justified. But to do what BMM is saying? No. Harry going dark, Harry being persecuted or tossed in Azkaban, too much paperwork as a head of wizengamot or Headmaster, etc... none of these things is enough to make him snap. You could be talking about the straw breaking the camel's back (settle down Sree, it's just a phrase), but that's still just one tiny bit and not the larger underlying reason. You need something bigger to cause such a severe change in his personality because it will require taking away Dumbledore's rational mind. If Fawkes morphed into a demon beast, wore a costume made from Aberforth's skin after sauteeing some man-boob steaks, then ass-raped Albus, and ate his eyeballs leaving him blind... I'm not sure that'd be enough.

Visible indiscriminate killing, the first time or two could be rationalized away as Dumbledore fighting fire with fire (and his victims would be portrayed as evil for whatever justification they could come up with). But eventually, there will be a death that cannot be rationalized or maybe just too many questionable deaths. And at that point the public would view him in pretty much the same way as Voldemort, but without so much fear probably. The Order, too, would abandon him. The reason the people are in the Order and support him are not because they're mindless sycophantical followers. It's because they agree with him enough and believe him to be the best leader. Their view of him would change, and their reasons to be in the Order would no longer be valid. More than likely the Order would be those trying their hardest to stop Dumbledore and figure out what happened to him.

 

I think that canon Dumble meant that there are far worse things than death in Dumble´s opinion, since he only thinks of death as the "next great adventure". I guess that something far worse for Dumbledore would be if you killed all the children at school or something like that.
If my memory serves me correct there was also something similar in HBP when Dumble had to cut himself in order to open the secret door.



I don't believe that Dumbledore would snap because of too much workload. He is far too experienced to let something like that bother him too much. Altough it could be a pretty funny Humor oneshot.

 

I read a fic once, i think it was called 'Black Knight' or something along those lines where Dumbledore, Harry and the Order go to the site of an attack and Dumbles' family is dead.

He busts a nut and starts using AKs and shit...after the battle, he's sobbing into McG's lap and crying because of what he did. I think it was by shahenshah something or the other *blushes*

It was pretty cool as i remember it, but it might ahve been a H/G fic...O_O