The way Hades operates conflicts entirely with how death in DF works. I'm sure you've figured out a way to resolve it, though.

 

Ryuugi, you seem to have thought this through. Whilst I may not agree entirely with everything you are saying, I'm just glad to see you have your own perspective in your head.

 

It doesn't really conflict, actually. I mean, we only saw one person die, and he was an extremely special case involving Angels and Archangels and Demons.

Same with Foothill--a special case in which an Angel of Death had to be sent.

Basically, we have no idea what happens to normal people when they die. It's not as simple as 'The Angels always take care of it.' At the end of SF, Gard was interested in Michael's soul because she was a Valkyrie--though an Angel would have smacked her down, I'm sure. We also saw some of the souls the Valkyries had taken in Changes.

Also, remember, the PJ Underworld isn't just what it appears through Percy's eyes. If you recall Book 1, mortal souls see even the Underworld through the Mist--and to them it looks like whatever the Mist shows them.

So yeah.

 

So a couple more questions for you.

You say Hecate will be a badass magic user. How badass? In comparison to say...the Merlin, is she equal or better?

And, just cause I didn't notice you agree or disagree, are the PJ Gods (the 12 that is, not the minor ones) going to be roughly equal to the Fae Queens in power?

 

If she's someone that used a Rite of Ascension (as the Hecatean Hags tried to in Welcome to the Jungle), chances are she's above the Merlin in terms of power. This is especially true if she can run in the same crowd as the PJ Gods and not stand out.

 

Or to make it more Dresden-verse friendly, Western Civilization, simply because it is based off of Greco-Roman culture, works as a (reduced) form of worship for the Greek Gods. It's like Thomas at his salon; he isn't taking any of the people (being worshipped), but he is getting intimacy and that gives him a little bit of energy that adds up given enough clients and time (recognition via architecture, school curriculum across Western Civilization, Disney).

I think we can view the Fae similarly as well. Because of the G-Men (Gutenberg and the Grimms) and Shakespeare, they've also managed to pretty much permanently attach themselves into Western Civilization. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Thomas says as much in Backup regarding them.

The Norse myths are still out there, but they're much less known than Fairy Tales or the legend of Hercules. Furthermore, according to McCoy, children are a rather large source of magic/their belief and emotions are much more powerful than most adults, in general. The recent Thor movie aside, the Greek Gods have Disney's Hercules, and Fae have Peter Pan (just to name two examples). Every kid who watches those helps power either faction (usually both)

 

I'd hope you mean cumulatively, and not individually Mordecai, because any alliance of 3 gods would be enough to destroy the status quo and do some serious damage if so. Admittedly, I'm not very familiar with PJ -mostly because I think water powers are lame and the movie did not impress me, so I had no interest investigating the rest of the series- but there is no good reason why if each of the 12 gods was a queen, they wouldn't still be a dominant force in the world.

 

Well, I definitely mean individually Wildfeather. Each is a God, completely and utterly supreme in their domain. Poseidon is the God of the Seas, he has total control of water, and of anything in water. He knows everything that happens in water, anywhere. He can affect anything that happens near water. Zeus is the same with air and the sky. Even a more 'minor' of the 12 like Dionysus has total dominion of anywhere there is alcohol, anywhere there is a party or even merriment, and of anywhere there is madness.

That level of total power, and based on the books there would be evidence to suggest each God would actually have intellectus for their domain, puts each of them on par with the Fae Queens.

And thats just the 12 Great Gods, they have who knows how many minor Gods, most of whom are equally powerful, just in a more restricted domain.

EDIT: But I have to admit, I'm just looking at this based on Canon evidence from PJ, rather than by what balances in the mixed universe. Simply because if you de-power the PJ Gods, then the series is rendered moot and it basically defeats the point.

 

Even if they have Intellectus chances are they wouldn't compare to the sheer power the Faerie realms have. Plus there are the Mothers. Still, it's going to have a major effect on the balance of power no matter how much the PJ Gods wield.

 

I think this thread has finally motivated me to go out and read a couple of the PJ books. Sounds like some interesting stuff, at the least.

 

Well, we are talking about the Greeks here, so odds are they already swing both ways...

I tried reading the first one recently, what with all the talk here about xovers and stuff, and got about 80 pages in before deciding I didn't give a fuck about any of the characters. I know we're supposed to see all these gods as dicks or whatever, but it just failed to grab me. I wouldn't have cared if Percy had been killed by the Minotaur at the edge of the camp property, tbh. And no, that's not exactly a spoiler since its in the first hundred pages.


Best of luck if you give it a shot; I just couldn't make myself care about Percy or his friends or family. Part of my problem is the middle school mentality. In this instance it rubbed me the wrong way, whereas in HP it somehow seemed less juvenile. Hard to say for sure.

 

The problem is, that works in the books because they are, well, the Gods.

In the DF universe, they are now one group among many, and if they retain the power levels they did before, they are simply too overpowered for anybody to handle.

Consider. Each one of them is on par with a Fairy Queen, like Mab. Mab is about equal to the entire White Council together, and that's if they know her name.

This means that one individual God is at the very least equal in power to the entire White Council.

We have twelve such Gods, most of whom are willing to work together. With no restrictions on them using their power as far as we know.

There is no way in hell such an arrangement can work. It's simply far too unbalanced. Either you nerf the PJ Gods, or you buff up the Dresdenverse - and frankly, buffing up is not what the Dresdenverse needs.

 

What do you mean no restrictions? We know of at least four and it was implied that there were more. The Divine Laws, remember?

There are other rules, too, but they didn't come up so they weren't mentioned specifically. Some of these are rules set down by Zeus and some are just part of being a God.

Also, that last rule is a lot more solid then it sounds--Gods can't just come down and fight their kids battles, you see. Apollo and Hera broke the rule by giving a few words of advice to the heroes and then bailing before they got in trouble.

Besides which, it was stated early on, like in SK, that Mab was about as strong as a god. So there's Word of Jim, too. I think that was repeated several times, actually.

Also, Mab is nowhere near the top of the foodchain anymore. Recent WoJ has stated that individual Angels can destroy planets.

Yeah.

 

Wasn't that Archangels? And Archangels are roughly equivalent to the Mothers.

Also, when Butcher made that quote, I doubt he had the PJ universe in mind. In that verse, the Gods do all sorts of stuff, and can get away with it because they are more or less at the top of the food chain. Bringing the same level of power here wouldn't work.

The Divine Laws aren't really all that restrictive when it comes to dealing with other entities. I'd accept their power level if they had equal restrictions to the angels - to use your example, just because the archangels can destroy planets, doesn't mean they will. Yet your own quote shows that Gods can subvert the laws, implying they have more free will than the angels. If a modification was made in that sense, binding them to not use their power as and when they feel like it, it would a) solve the power level problem of why the PJ Gods haven't steamrolled everybody and b) give a valid reason for the campers to really get involved on all levels.

 

No. Angels blow up planets. Archangels are way, way beyond that. See also, GS.

I don't really understand. He said that Mab was about equal to a God at their full power. In PJ, Gods have feats that support that, so I don't really see what you're trying to say...?

First of all, did you not read what I said? The only law that was broken was the one Zeus set down; the others are just part of being a God. And even when they work around the rule that Zeus set down, they only do it in small ways, like giving advice and help before bailing.

Second of all, the angels can do what ever they want, in theory. Another Word of God that I've misplaced, for the moment. However, if they do so, it usually has bad results--that's what Lucifer did.

Man, up until not too long ago, every Culture had it's Gods. Go back about 3000 years to when the Greek Religion was first worshiped and you'll find a lot of Pantheons. Most of them just died out over the ages. Check the list in PG.

And the laws are bindings. Did you not read what I posted?

The fact that they can't normally get involved is why they have the demigods. In canon.

 

What he's saying is that while Mab may be equal in power to a god, and while PJ might contain beings with the power of gods (since they are, you know, gods), what "god" means in each respective universe means a very different thing. Using the same word to describe their powers tells you nothing about what they can actually do.

 

I was just wondering if I could use the mentioned Smallville idea. I was toying around a bit with such an idea myself, but I think if I can use parts of Taure's intro and the other contributions in this thread, I would like to give it a try.

I am thinking around the time of Dead Beat and Proven guilty here, somewhere around season 3-4 for Smallville as starting setting.

So, anyone mind if I give it a try?

 

This post makes you as bad as the most annoying people in SB's Versus forum. This is bad and you should feel bad.

 

Um...?

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. I was just saying that the PJ Gods had power that made them equal DF Gods at there full power, so I have no idea why I should feel bad...

 

Ryuugi Shi: Don't get caught up in the naming of things. Take a look at Mordecai's description of their powers, and imagine beings of that power level in the Dresdenverse. There are such beings, true. But they either have heavy restrictions, or are the only heavyweights on their side. The PJ Gods would, for the most part, be willing to work together, and I guess I just have less faith in the restrictions they seem to have placed on themselves than you do.

It's been some time since I read the books, but can you tell me what exactly the DF Gods had in terms of powers? I don't mean who they were as powerful as, but what they did. Because, as it stands, this

makes the PJ Gods way more powerful as far as I can tell than any other faction out there (except the angels), completely removing any rational reasoning as to why they secluded themselves.

And again, I don't see how the laws are binding. As you pointed out, the Gods can ignore some of them if they feel they can get away with it, the help is minor enough, or events warrant it - i.e. when they want to. They only abide by them because they fear the repercussions. The Angels, on the other hand, cannot go against the laws set down in place for use of their power, it is fundamentally not possible, IIRC. That's a significant difference.