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Do you think Slytherin was intended to represent everything that's "wrong"?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ThatGreekLady, May 5, 2016.

  1. ThatGreekLady

    ThatGreekLady Fourth Year

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    We never got any different perspectives at all or any evidence to suggest the perspectives were wrong.

    Remember, that Rowling said Slytherins can't be altruistic and if a Slytherin is altruistic, they were probably not sorted correctly.

    Now I personally think altruism is overrated, but this kinda suggests that most of these "redeemed" Slytherins (Snape, Regulus) should have probably been in another House.

    Also, I'm 99% there was an old interview where Rowling said she couldn't believe someone would identify as Slytherin, but I can't find it now. If someone with decent research skills will be so kind as to find it for me.
     
  2. BTT

    BTT Viol̀e͜n̛t͝ D̶e͡li͡g҉h̛t҉s̀ ~ Prestige ~

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    You interpret that quote as the Hat refusing to acknowledge it has made mistakes, but I personally interpreted it as the Hat not actually having made a mistake. Without knowing the cases that quote talks about, we really can't say for certain.
     
  3. Lunanight

    Lunanight Squib

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    According to what Pottermore says about Hatstalls:

    The implications of this part is that:
    • The Sorting Hat was wrong to put Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor instead of Slytherin.
    • Pettigrew is the only non-Slytherin Death Eater of all the Death Eaters who attended Hogwarts. Before someone mentions him, Quirrell was not a Death Eater since he lacked the Dark Mark. Besides, Quirrell was irrelevant after PS whereas the Death Eaters were important across the entire series.
    • While the Sorting Hat doesn't believe that it made a mistake sorting Pettigrew, Pottermore (and by extension, JKR) suggest that the Sorting Hat made a mistake (sorting Peter into Gryffindor instead Slytherin) but was so stubborn that the Hat refused to admit it made a mistake.
    • Therefore, Pettigrew is a Slytherin in all but name. Even most (if not all) of us believe Pettigrew was better suited for Slytherin than Gryffindor.

    I say that Wormtail being the only non-Slytherin DE in canon is because despite the existence of two foreign-named DEs, it is implied that both attended Hogwarts and in the case of Dolohov, that they were Slytherin. Dolohov was one of the Death Eaters waiting for Riddle when Riddle was applying for the DADA position, and the original Death Eaters were all in Slytherin. Those original DEs being:
    • Nott Sr (Theodore Nott's elderly father)
    • Rosier Sr (Evan Rosier's father)
    • Avery Sr (the father of the Avery who hung around with Snape at Hogwarts)
    • Lestrange Sr (the father of Rabastian and Rodolphus)
    • Mulciber Sr (the father of the Mulciber who hung around with Snape at Hogwarts)
    • Dolohov (implied to be Antonin Dolohov, not a relative, since JKR called Antonin one of Voldemort's oldest Death Eaters).

    As for Karkaroff, I remember him saying something in GoF that implied he had attended Hogwarts (I forget if he said "good, old Hogwarts" or said something else which implied he had been to Hogwarts before) and he also lacks an accent like the other foreign characters (e.g. Krum, Fleur, Madame Maxime, etc). Assuming he went to Hogwarts, Slytherin is literally the only house Karkaroff would ever go to. He's a coward, he's not intelligent, nor is he loyal. Unless the Sorting Hat made yet another mistake that it wouldn't want to admit, the odds are that Karkaroff was a Slytherin.

    I should emphasise that what I said about Dolohov and Karkaroff is formed based on my personal interpretation of the books (mainly GoF and HBP) and Pottermore. Nowhere in the books or Pottermore does it state explicitly that either/both attended Hogwarts, or even that they were specifically Slytherin. They might have attended Durmstrang as the text suggests, making me completely incorrect about those two(Pettigrew would still be the only canon non-Slytherin Death Eater of those who attended Hogwarts). However, Dolohov attending Hogwarts as a Slytherin is practically spelled out in my opinion given the HBP flashback along with Pottermore. Karkaroff being at Hogwarts is based on his familarity with Snape (even by DE standards, they seem to know each other fairly well) and Karkaroff's lack of an foreign accent (unlike Krum), given how consistent JKR was with Beauxbatons and its French accent.
     
  4. Alpaca Queen

    Alpaca Queen Fourth Year

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    First, that quote doesn't necessarily mean Pettigrew was a "Slytherin in all but name." Remember that Harry Potter was nearly a hatstall himself, also split between Gryffindor and Slytherin, and that the hat also stood by its decision with him. As Dumbledore succinctly puts it: "It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Pettigrew was evil because he chose to sacrifice his friends for himself. Harry was good because he chose to sacrifice himself for his friends. If you say one was Slytherin and the other wasn't because one was evil and the other wasn't, you are employing a tautology: "Only Slytherins are evil because evil people must be Slytherin because only Slytherins are evil..."

    Second, it is not conclusively proven that every Death Eater other than Pettigrew was a Slytherin. The ones we see - the most important ones - are, but that just means that Voldemort prefers to surround himself with Slytherins. This should be no surprise, given his professed pride in the house and its founder. In this sense, you can read it equally well as Slytherins being more predisposed to evil or as Voldemort being particularly capable at turning people to evil.

    Personally, I prefer the latter interpretation, as it doesn't require that I prematurely assign a full quarter of the wizarding population as inherently evil. In this, I would like to reference the statement Dumbledore made at the end of CoS:
    And we see this is true with canon characters, including other non-Slytherins you mention such as Quirrell and Pettigrew, who were resolutely on the side of good before they were corrupted by him. Combine this with how persuasive he was as a student, as well as how he keeps attempting to convert the Hogwarts defenders during the final battle, and it seems rather likely that Voldemort is simply a skilled manipulator who is used to turning his enemies to his side.

    I mean, there is no other unifying quality between Draco Malfoy, Peter Pettigrew, Quirinus Quirrell, and Ginny Weasley, all of whom were used by Voldemort to grow more powerful. He took advantage of Malfoy's love for his family, Pettigrew's fear, Quirrell's thirst for knowledge, and Ginny's insecurity, to make each of them work on his side in ways they wouldn't normally have. Of that list, only Hufflepuff is unrepresented.

    So are Slytherins correlated with Death Eaters? Yes. But correlation does not mean causation, and it's far easier to explain this phenomenon by saying that the Death Eaters were gathered by a person who preferred Slytherins, and who could convert them as he wished.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
  5. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Lunanight: The point is that this is evidence only for Slytherin being big on certain political ideas, and we knew that already.

    Everyone can become a fanatic follower, murdering for a "cause", that isn't exclusive or more likely for people who are likely to go to Slytherin. (In fact, I'd argue the trend would be the reverse.) If there was a hypothetical Muggleborn Dark Lord, killing purebloods and attracting followers with a political platform that amounts to whatever was his idea of equality, Slytherin might well be the only House not turning out followers. This neither implies that Slytherin is the only "good" house, nor that the rest is "evil": It's simply logical, given the political leanings.
     
  6. ThatGreekLady

    ThatGreekLady Fourth Year

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    The problem is that not only the Death Eaters, but nearly every asshole was in Slytherin.

    The fact that Umbridge was a Slytherin says a lot.

    As about Pettigrew he had no Gryffindor traits. He is like the biggest coward in the series, so yea I think he should have been a Slytherin.

    What are some asshole non-Slytherins we meet:

    Lockhart(Ravenclaw)
    Quirrell(Ravenclaw)
    Teenage James and Sirius(Gryffindor)
    Pettigrew (Gryffindor with no Gryffindor traits)

    Now what are the supposed "good" Slytherins we meet:

    Slughorn
    Andromeda (a totally minor char that doesn't even matter)
    Snape (total dick)
    Narcissa (lol, I don't buy that she was a good person. She cared about her family but she still probably had no problem with racial genocide)
    Regulus (He still was a Death Eater and we never even meet him)

    Compare that to the other Houses that actually have likable and relevant characters:

    Ravenclaw: Luna, Flitwick
    Hufflepuff: Cendric, Tonks
    Gryffindor: Many, many people.

    ---------- Post automerged at 03:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------

    I just don't get why being cunning, ambitious,resourceful must mean you're a sadistic asshole with no morals like 99% of the Slytherins we see in the books.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
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