I'm curious what people's takes are on being able to dodge and shield spells.

My thought is that the moment a person has finished an incantation, the spell is cast. Some spells traverse the distance instantaneously, and some traverse it very quickly (think at least arrow speed and faster), and very few do so slowly (mostly spells that create things like fire or water).

In effect, once cast, it's generally too late to dodge or shield.

So, to achieve either you generally have to have successfully or nearly successfully shielded or dodged by the time the spell is cast.

In the case of dodging, if their attacker can keep their wand trained on the person, dodging won't work. So they need to be behind something that protects them by the time the spell is cast, or only get attacked by people with bad aim.

With shielding they need to have cast their shield by the time the spell is cast. There might be some some magical, time defying wiggle room, but there's not exactly anything firm in canon to support that. It would sort of make sense in terms of timing in fights.

Without wiggle room it might be possible to defeat a shield by using spells with very short incantations, shorter than the person's OODA loop (observe–orientate–decide–act). If you can't observe a person is casting and then cast a shield before they cast, you're going to get hit unless they miss you. You could also do a Snape and be a legilimens which allows you to observe earlier.

My only worry with this is that in writing fanfic you might create some wanky thing where every character is using the same very short and suitably offensive spell just to get the one up on the person they are fighting. The Cruciatus curse is the first that comes to mind but a writer could come up with something less illegal for their story.

Thoughts?

 

I think the only time spells are ever dodged in a controlled way in canon is in HBP when under the influence of Felix Felicis. That is telling, I think. All other times a spell is "dodged", it's because the target was already moving at the time the spell was cast, or simply by diving out of the way in a desperate, last ditch attempt to avoid getting hit - which leaves you sprawled on the floor and at a definite tactical disadvantage.

So basically I take the same approach as a gunfight: if you're moving around, you can be harder to hit, but it's basically impossible to see a spell coming and react in time to move out of the way.

I think a lot of the fanon love of dodging is tied into the fanon love of magical exhaustion. If you can only cast a limited number of spells in a fight, dodging saves your magic battery. But once you accept that there's no magical exhaustion in canon, then it just becomes a bit silly to wildly dive out of the way, sacrificing your position and attacking momentum in order to avoid casting a shield or blocking. It only really makes sense for the Killing Curse.

 

It makes me think "dodging practice" would be a thing, but it's for practising hitting a moving target, not the other way around.

 

I'm of the opinion that the answer is yes, but actually no.

In my mind, spells are very fast, but slower than bullets, and not all spells travel at the same speed.

As a general rule, spells are too fast to dodge after being shot. The only way to 'dodge' would be to make a move before or as the spell is cast to try to throw off the attacker's aim, which is is difficult because it's hard to know exactly what they're aiming at.

With that said, shields have the same issue. You still need time to cast a shield. It's not that different from attempting to get out of the way somehow. So magical responses to spells don't get an instant by from this problem.

Alternatively, just throw yourself out of the way and hope you started early enough which, as Taure said, would normally leave you at a disadvantage.

Small note here that to me, spells differ in flying speed, but the difference is in fractions of seconds and generally, slower spells are more rare than fast ones.

Where I differ from Taure's outlook is that, with training and experience in actually putting these dodging options into practice, an individual can employ them more consistently and recover from the opening they create faster. People such as Aurors, or otherwise trained or experienced magical combatants that don't disdain or shy away from physical exertion or are too powerful to bother.

 

Honestly? Taure's interpretation of canon is probably right, and it's why I've not really gotten into HP fanfics in years.

Combat is just straight up boring.

I'd rework magic entirely, deleting entire schools of spells if I were to write a fic. Anything that's just 'point and cast' can go and do one. If it does land instantly with no flight time, I'd only allow that for a 'channeled spell' where the effect isn't instantaneous - this fits for Curses in my mind.

I'd focus a lot more on telekinesis, transfiguration/animation, and elemental effects. That kind of magic just appeases my monkey brain more than the point and shoot bulletspells we get. And it also allows for a greater, visible differential in skill levels than canon does, dodging and shielding included.

 

I guess where I differ from @Republic is that I don't think shields need to be cast reactively, but rather that you can cast a shield which persists in the location you have cast it, then cast spells from behind it. I think this has to be the case, because we see, especially in DH, that shields are cast on a particular space and persist in that space, and do not disappear when the caster goes on to cast other magic.

The reason we don't see this often would be:

1. HP combat is rarely a pitched battle where you are lining up neatly and chucking spells at the other side. Rather, people tend to be moving around a lot in order to achieve some objective. So you're going to leave your Shield Charm behind most of the time.

2. Sitting in the open, behind a Shield Charm, is just asking to be hit by a Killing Curse (in a serious fight at least). In this way, the Killing Curse becomes a key component in the HP magical arsenal, a way of flushing people out of entrenched positions, and without it magical combat would look more static.

3. By relying so heavily on a Shield Charm you're taking the gamble that no one can cast a spell powerful enough to break through your shield. Not a great assumption when you're facing wizards like Voldemort. Most people will be more cautious.

Branching away from my view of canon and towards fanfiction, this is also influenced by the way I handle the Shield Charm, as follows:

A. The Shield Charm is a kind of scaffold on which you build over time.

B. At the most basic level, the Shield Charm is just a barrier that can stop moderately powerful spells such as Charms, jinxes, and hexes - provided the shield is more powerful than the spell. But it won't stop powerful spells. It is essentially a prospective "Finite Incantatem" given a physical manifestation.

C. Over time, you build up the strength of your Shield Charm by adding further properties to it - essentially, you are building in specific Counter-Spells into the scaffolding of your Shield Charm, as well as additional effects such as stopping physical objects, being able to reflect spells instead of just blocking them, etc. So the list of things your Shield Charm can stop grows as you build it up and customise it.

D. However, if you don't know the counter to a specific spell and/or have not yet got around to weaving that counter into your Shield Charm, your shield will struggle to block it. The general defensive effect of the Shield Charm (the Finite Incantatem aspect) may reduce the power of the spell, but it won't block it completely.

E. Additionally, there are some spells to which there is no known counter. The Killing Curse is unique in that it is the only spell to which a counter is considered impossible, but there are plenty of obscure curses where a counter is theoretically possible but unknown - e.g. the curse on Dumbledore's hand in HBP. Shield Charms are particularly vulnerable to these curses.

What all this adds up to is that the Shield Charm is not some go-to universal defence against all possible magic that you can just happily sit behind while picking off your enemies in comfort.

 

As is my way, I'm going to mostly agree with Taure, but quibble over details.

I think, given what we see, that dodging can't really be the kind of effective tactic often seen in fanfiction. However, I'd still argue for it having a place, given what else we know of magical fights.

First, there's the elephant in the room; the Killing Curse. If you don't have the necessary material around you to block the curse, or are simply not good enough at conjuration to create enough material to block the curse, then dodging is pretty much your only option. I don't mean dodging in the 'tracking the path of the spell and sliding out of the way so it can zip by inches from your face like you're Neo or something', but simply making sure you keep in motion, and perhaps throw in a few dodges and weaves for good measure. Is it ideal? No. Does jumping frantically out of the way of a spell potentially leave you open? Yes. Is that still better than taking a Killing Curse to the face? Also yes.

We should also consider what little dodging we do see in canon:

Seems to be a case of Harry throwing himself to the ground. Hardly ideal for a stand-up fight.

Taking cover behind a nearby thing. Dodging, yes, but not in the way usually shown in fanfic.

Same as above.

This seems to be much more like the dodging often used in fanfics, though it's also obviously a case of Ginny being outgunned, and without the ability to meaningfully defend herself through other means. Still, it seems to work. Arguments could be made that this is Amycus playing with his food, like someone shooting a gun at their opponent's feet.

Again, seems to have worked.

Killing Curse, not much else he could do.

However, keeping mobile certainly seems to be of value.

Not a full accounting, of course, but it serves to demonstrate the point that dodging in the Neo sense is clearly not something that happens, but staying mobile, and being willing to throw oneself out of the way of an unblockable spell are certainly worth while (duh).

Perhaps this goes some way to explaining why Death Eaters don't stick to the Killing Curse more than they seem to. If constant mobility is an effective defence against spells, then there is suddenly a purpose for lethal, non-Killing Curse options, and spells which might be able to reduce an enemy's ability to remain mobile.

I might propose a system like the following:

• Spells are actually fairly hard to aim. In canon we see plenty of spells miss when their target is moving or at range. Perhaps some spells have better accuracy than others (a limited ability to track targets, say, or a broader area of influence), but at the expense of being generally less lethal.
• Almost all spells are blockable. Perhaps some highly specific spells require something more than a Protego (though I'd agree with Taure that Protego as a general broad defence with efficacy decided by the caster's knowledge/ability is better than needing hundreds of special shield spells), and the Killing Curse is, of course, unblockable by anything less than a robust physical barrier.
• Most wizards rely on mobility to keep them safe against their enemies, as they do not have the depth of knowledge, or speed needed to be able to identify and block/counter a wide enough variety of spells. Perhaps their Protego is also weaker than is necessary to completely block a well-cast spell.
• Thus, for most witches and wizards, a duel is about either denying your opponent the chance to block, or trying to lure them into not bothering. For example, you might lead with a number of quick, hard to dodge, but relatively non-lethal spells to force them to shield. Once you have them 'stuck' on shielding rather than staying mobile, you can then throw a Killing Curse, or some other thing in the hope of catching them flat-footed.
• Alternatively, things like fire and water might be valuable for reducing your opponents ability to move around.
• Very experienced or gifted wizards may be good enough that they simply don't need to bother with mobility. Dumbledore or Voldemort are simply knowledgeable enough that they can block or counter pretty much anything. This gives them a further advantage in a fight. Where lesser duellists may become tired, they do not, and where lesser duellists have to waste time moving (lowering accuracy and rate of casting), they do not.

So I guess I'm suggesting that mobility and dodging is something you do to cover for deficiencies elsewhere. It is also, amusingly, rather reminiscent of the Matrix again. "No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to."

 

To build on Steelbadger's post, there is one additional aspect that should be mentioned, which is engagement distance. I'm perfectly fine with people being able to dodge out of the way of "linear point and shoot" spells if they've been sent at you from an unusual distance e.g. 50 metres.

 

I think this is a backwards way to look at the problem. Before understanding what fanfiction is trying to do, it is important to understand JKR's motives for how she designed her magic system and action scenes.

The sad reality is that JKR didn't care much for traditional fantasy worldbuilding and cared even less for action scenes. She started out writing mystery novels with a fantasy aesthetic and then grafted both magic and action scenes onto them when they became necessary or served the purposes of the plot she wanted to write.

Dodging in fanfiction, hell even magic cores and limits, isn't about an arbitrary love for them, its about creating a system that resembles canon that also works with action scenes. Since dodging is plausible in canon, everyone who wants to include an action scene in their story grasps at it.

The problem I have with dodging is that it is a nonmagical solution in a story that should revolve around magic more than it does. It's a boring solution to writing an action scene.

I think that Gengar has the right idea. If you really want to write action, you are better off just scrapping everything JKR wrote about magic and making a system that suits your needs rather than the mystery story JKR was writing.

 

I don't think the canon magic system is bad or so simplistic it can't be exciting. The timing of wands is kind of like the timing of single shot pistols, but there's so much more they can do. No, in a real fight, no one is ever going to cast the stupid 'levicorpus' spell directly on an enemy in order to defeat that enemy, but you may do so to keep your enemy from moving and use him as a human shield to absorb a killing curse from one of his allies, thus wasting an opportunity for them and potentially giving you the opportunity to advance. Obviously, people are going to stick to one of the unforgiveables when their goal is to neutralize a single enemy, but there's so much more you have to do in combat than neutralize individuals. The knowledgeable, well-practiced wizard uses other spells to gain strategic advantages.

 

I think dodging/moving around is a viable tactic that can be learned to some degree. It would explain why Aurors need to be so good at magic + all those tests they need to pass. Since Aurors are dark wizard catchers it is probably safe to assume their opponents would more or less just hurl killing curses at them which can't be blocked and Aurors are confined with laws and orders - they need to bring in their opponent alive.

As Steelbadger's quotes showed, a single spell can be avoided on instinct with quick reflexes, but I don't think it's something to rely on. So shielding is kinda a way to go, but besides friendly duels and schoolyard squabbles, they kinda seem useless since there's no reason why your opponent wouldn't just use curses that can't be blocked. (Avada Kedavra, Crucio...?) Or some wide-area spells (although as far as I can remember only Voldemort and Dumbledore used those, and Crabbe lol)

The system as it is, is in the high favor of bad guys.

Then there is this annoying drawback of the shielding which I have no idea how it works. We saw in OotP that protego can even bounce back Legilimens but what if Snape used the shielding charm too? Would it bounce back and forth for an eternity? So even though I like the idea of protego growing in strength as the caster's knowledge grows, I'd say it's just the part of a wizards' defenses.

That's why I always go with the notion that 95% of wizards suck in dueling, fighting, and rely on Aurors or their shields (that apparently most of the adults can't even cast)

But those that can fight use a combination of shielding, moving around, vanishing (something will blow up), and conjuring/animating/summoning to block those few curses you can't deal with in any other way. If JK says that adults can't even shield themselves, I doubt they're that good at these either. Hence the Aurors.

 

Even if that's the case (where it could just as easily have a momentary modification that one time we see it, I swear Protego is different every time) shields still need time to be initially cast. They don't evade the issue.

What's more, we have at least one lethal example of a spell that can't be blocked by a shield, and afaik the implication that there's a fair few more.

And like Steelbadger said, we do have a fair amount of examples of people physically avoiding spells or getting out of the way early or throwing off the attacker's aim where it is a consistent strategy.

 

I've long had an idea for a fic (never wrote it, because I didn't want to burn the idea on bad writing) with a oneshot, Dumbledore's first entrance into the duelling scene. I love the idea that he completely turned duelling on it's head (along with everything else he ever did), although he never went 'pro'.

Somewhere on the continent, in the apprentice level tournaments...

We see the stage, and the round before. Two opponents, darting around, serpentine movements, pre-emptively 'dodging' spells, and trying to get the time to cast an AoE or seeking spell, so that they can make up for their opponent's missteps. One of them falters, and casts a distinctive spell, which the other counters, managing to take the time to get steady, and freeze the floor. Now, with steady footing, they turn the tide, so that they win. They're lead off, duelling leathers torn and burned from near-misses.

Dumbeldore enters the stage. Gaudy, floor-length, voluminous robes down to the floor. A pointed hat. A rather fetching cravat to set off the colour of his glasses' rims.

Chuckles spread through the room. What are those silly Anglos doing, that this is their best?

His opponent steps up. It's a shame, really, Dumbledore's an unknown, not yet even taken his NEWTs, and his opponent is seeded top 8 in the sub-21 bracket. Whiplike reflexes, and such a near-win last time, it's quite possible he'd take a spot on the podium this year!

The duel starts. Dumbledore doesn't move... Except his wand. A blur of motion, every single spell is countered, and recast back at his opponent with a unique twist. Rather than a blur of motion, Dumbledore is a solid rock. Finally, his opponent collapses, out of breath, before being trussed up like a turkey, and promptly transfigured into one.

So starts Dumbledore's Grand Tour.

 

The fight between Dumbledore and Voldemort in OotP shows killing curse being extremely slow. There are three instances in that fight where a reactionary moving object has time to intercept the curse. First a statue leaps in front of Harry, strikes a pose and stops the curse, the second time a centaur gallops in front of Dumbledore, and finally Fawkes swoops down, opens his beak wide and swallows it.

Obviously having all curses flying this slow would have major impact on all fights (also it would probably look stupid, which is likely why we don't see those beats in the movies...), so I'm forced to once again say that Harry Potter magic works on rule of cool: when it's cool to dodge or to jump in front of a curse striking a pose, it's possible to do so.

 

Why dont wizards invent a spell or item for mobility to dodge if it cant be shielded? Like use a broom or enchant your shoes or an object that can move fast to dodge. Shouldn't warfare suppose to be one-upping every spell thats developed by the enemy? If you encountered a spell especially if its meta(imperio and ak) shouldnt you create or learn how to counter it?

Besides Shielding is too common and easy to counter now and destroy. The point should be whats the best tactic now thats shielding is not effective anymore? Should learn animation or make something so you can move to dodge for AK. Btw, unspeakables should create a counter for imperio now (either remove it or somehow scan it). They have a lot of time to do some research right?