afrojack:

Well, Harry disagrees with your analysis. And given the importance of the scene, he is most likely speaking with the author's voice:

He probably thought James Potter was an asshole (and he isn't wrong, really) and that Lily would be better off without him. In his mind, Lily would be better off in the long run. This seems to me a far more logical explanation than your theories (rape. Really?) which go against canon.

 

People on this forum regularly shit on Harry's change of attitude with regard to Snape, but if you think the whole "Albus Severus" situation was a logical extension of the rest of canon, fine. I'm not denying that Harry had a change of heart, or that it is canon, but last time I checked, Harry's opinions about canon and actual canon were not necessarily the same. My analyses need not conform to Harry's opinions of the world or of people in it.

Sure, that sounds like real love. Are you serious?

How in the world is rape outside the realm of Snape's character, in canon? How does that idea "go against" canon? I mean, according to you, to what you just said:

That was Snape, in canon. How is that not a rapey, "here-take-this-potion-it's-good-for-you" kind of guy?

 

Afrojack, I gotta side against you on this. With love potions cheap enough and easily obtained enough that even Merope Gaunt could afford them to dose up Tom Riddle Sr. doesn't it seem likely that a student of Snape's caliber could have, if he had so desired, found a way to dose Lily up after the bad break between them in school? Well before she went into hiding with James?

And yet he never did. He pined after her endlessly, yes, perhaps he even obsessed over her and his hatred of James burned that much more painfully as a result, but would he actually rape her? No. That isn't the man we are presented despite the rest of his grudges and woes.

 

I would argue that he wouldn't have had the courage to do it while James and Lily's other friends were alive and around to identify any abnormalities, but I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I just can't see Snape's actions and words in relation to Lily representing any kind of real, benevolent love for a person.

He didn't want to make her happy, he wanted to make her his. Wanting to possess someone and being in love aren't the same.

 

Generally? No. But the above scene was too important for Harry not to be speaking with author's voice.

Snape thinking he would be better for Lily than James makes him a rapist now? Given what James and his friends did to Snape (and his resultant distorted view of them), is it really surprising that he would think Lily better off without him?

This is worst case explanation anyway. Most likely he was so desperate to save Lily that he didn't give a thought to Harry and James, or any effect that their deaths would have on Lily. Didn't he ask Dumbledore to keep them all safe after that?

 

I think you are trying to pick and choose which parts of Harry's opinion are canon to support your argument.


And yes, if Snape is the kind of guy who thinks it's okay to allow the family of the woman he claims to love to be murdered because he himself thinks she'd be better off without them, whether she loves them or not, then yes, he seems like the kind of person who doesn't really take the consent of the people he's "helping" into account. Also, I only said he might do it, not that he definitely would. I personally think he'd be capable of it (ala Bill Cosby), but I never said him being a rapist was canon.

And, you are clearly insane, if you think it's reasonable to be okay with a BABY being MURDERED because its father may be an asshole. Again, are you fucking serious?

EDIT: Oh, you mean that, after he had done the damage, he tried to get Dumbledore's help to protect her? Oh, and the baby and husband, too, after being questioned about what an asshole he was being? Sure, that's alright then.

I think the only fanon here is the attempt to redeem Snape.

 

At what point did Snape ever lack courage? You can call him many things but a coward isn't one of them.

 

You never answered my question:

As for when Snape lacked courage . . . I would say he lacked the courage to stand alone in Slytherin as someone who knew better, who knew, personally, for a fact, that Muggleborns could be both ingenious and incredibly talented with magic.

I'd say he lacked courage when he decided to indulge an old grudge rather than allow Harry a fighting chance to prove he wasn't James's clone.

But lacking courage isn't what would have prevented him from trying to forcibly take Lily, so much as a notion that he would never pull it off. It wouldn't really be a matter of courage or cowardice to realize that Lily's extended family would never allow such a thing to happen, just as Harry didn't let Ron go and try to seduce Romilda Vane.

He was still a Slytherin, however brave he was, and we have to remember that he became one after Lily went to Gryffindor. We know from Harry's experience that he could have had a choice (probably the same one Harry had), and he chose Slytherin.

It's interesting to wonder why. Is it because he hated James, and he had just seen James go to Gryffindor? See, with Snape, hatred and jealousy always win out over "love," which is why it isn't really love so much as some childish desire to own the object of their desires.

 

Of course not. We have no idea what Snape did in his time as a Death Eater, but at the very least he was indirectly the cause of James/Lily's death by sharing the prophecy with Voldemort.

 

Please explain. When did Harry ever think Snape's love for Lily was untrue?

In any case, we are losing sight of what is canon here.

After that Snape asks Dumbledore to keep them all safe.

So. Dumbledore is disgusted because Snape begged Voldemort to spare Lily and kill just James and Harry instead. Which is stupid. Snape couldn't very well have asked Voldemort to spare Harry, seeing that killing him was the entire point. Saving Lily's life was the best that he could hope for, and which was, of course, his greatest priority.

This is all that is canon. It only proves that Snape prioritized Lily's life over her son's. How does this equate to Snape raping Lily is beyond me.

In any case, if Harry believes that Snape loved Lily, then it is good enough for me.

 

I probably wouldn't, but then again I'm not Snape. I'm not really a gigantic asshole, there are a lot of things Snape does that I personally wouldn't. Loving one person and hating that person's children are not mutually exclusive.

 

I mean that you acknowledged that Harry's opinion of what happened is not the equivalent of true canon. Then you decide that at one particular point, he was speaking with the Author's voice about how much Snape loved Lily. So to me, it seems that you are simply saying that to add additional weight to an argument that would not otherwise have it.

At no point did I say Harry ever thought Snape's love was untrue. I'm not sure where you read those words, but it wasn't in my post.

I agree. I have said so many times now that I was only considering the possibility as opposed to suggesting he would definitely do it, that I must conclude that you are purposefully constructing a ridiculous strawman by saying "equates to rape" when that is never what I did, or you simply cannot read. Either way, I'm done addressing this.

Yes, after being shown what an absolute piece of human trash he is by Dumbledore, he asks for them to be saved too. As I said before, that does not absolve him in my eyes. Dumbledore is disgusted with him and his actions, and that is good enough for me.

EDIT:

I would agree, if the child had ever done anything worthy of such hatred. But Harry didn't.

In that case, I disagree. Those would definitely be mutually exclusive.

Who else loved Lily, and had no idea what Harry would be like? Slughorn. How did he treat Harry?

The only difference is that Snape hated James. If that's enough to make you dislike the child before you even see him, you clearly didn't really care for or think all that much of the mother, either.

 

I'm saying that the final confrontation with Voldemort was one of the most important moments of the entire series, and in such a scene Harry couldn't really be saying something that JKR thought to be false or absurd.

Who said anything about absolving? That Snape was a shitty human being, even moreso in his Death Eater days, is not up for question. Dumbledore being disgusted by him for being responsible for a child's death is fine. But Snape cannot be faulted for begging Voldemort to spare Lily at the cost of James and Harry's life, and neither does this act diminish his love for Lily in any way.

Evil people can love too. See Sesc's post earlier in this thread.

 

Wow . . . all I can say is that Dumbledore disagreed, I think.

EDIT: I think we just have a fundamental disagreement about what a man can or cannot be faulted for, or what diminishes his love for another.

 

Ignoring everything said above, Snape is a terrible human being because he was perfectly willing to lead a child to his death when he gave the prophecy to Voldemort and love does not change that.

Edit: Sorrows: Lily not Lilly.

 

I'm sorry, I just can't think that if he revered her, he would be okay with ruining her entire life so long as she herself lived. I know that his position as a DE prevented him from asking for anything else, but here I would have to say that his decision to ever join an organization that blatantly hunts her kind down and would kill her without remorse if given the opportunity would kind of indicate that it was never really true love.

But then, maybe my definition of real love is too strict. I mean, compare Snape's love to James's love for Lily, Lily's love for Harry, or Harry's love for his friends and Hogwarts, such that they were willing to sacrifice everything for that loved one or those loved ones. Snape was willing to sacrifice Lily's family so he could keep her alive to obsess over, or to have her for himself. Is that love?

 

Afrojack, your opinion has been noted. Several times. Do you think you could just ... stop, now? You're just repeating yourself.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't realize having a pink name was an excuse to relentlessly shitpost in every thread you visit.

You haven't made a substantial argument once. It's all ad hominem. If anyone needs to stop, it's you.

 

No, you keep making this jump in logic that just doesn't make sense. Hatred and love are not rational emotions. There is nothing to stop Snape loving Lily and hating her child for a different reason.