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WIP Dragons of Ice and Fire by serpentguy - M - A Song of...

Discussion in 'Books' started by Invictus, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. The Magician

    The Magician Muggle

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    It took me a while to figure out what bothered me so much about the second half of this story, and then I realized - the author is doing his own version of Dany's Meereen arc.

    He's got the dragon restricted, he's got the character handling politics instead. Just like Dany, there's an arc showing their attitude going from weak peacemaker to fire and blood. I get what he was trying to do.

    The only problem is that the Meereen arc sucked.

    It was an awful arc in a dance with dragons, GRM even admitted he fucked up. I can't understand why anyone would read the Meereen arc and then try to do it again.

    This was an even worse version of the Meereenese blot, written by a less experienced writer with even more flaws than the original. Near everything after Jon crossed the Wall was just very disappointing.

    I am hoping it can move on and get better, apparently it will be a second book soon.

    Mind I did enjoy the southern interlude chapters, and the latest chapters with the Wall have actually been pretty great. On the show, it was "oh, the Wall fell", and so what? There was no impact to it. In this fic, you get some epic battles, heroic sacrifices and all. There are good battle scenes, and one thing the author does really well is this constant feeling of dread and horror.

    It's just a shame. This story is still decent, but it could have been great.
     
  2. Tesla

    Tesla Auror

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    Overall, it's good. I never stopped being compelled to read on the whole way through, which is ultimately the most fundamental sign of quality. I guess I'd give it a 4-4.5/5.

    I have a question though — why are so many of the commenters on the forum so ridiculously offended by the fact that Jon Snow didn't indiscriminately use a weapon of mass destruction to dominate Westeros? That's one of the most in character things about this story.

    Once you allow for the fact that Jon is reluctant to slaughter innocent people with an ice dragon (which, duh — it's Jon Snow), it's clear he faces a deck that's stacked against him. Besides, he wouldn't be able to gain the loyalty of anyone behind the wall if he did use the dragon in that manner.

    Meanwhile, some of the people here are crying because he didn't fuck a female character the way they wanted him too, or because he wasn't making sufficiently masculine noises in battle.

    The author goes a little OTT in places (specifically with some of the magic granted to rivals) in his efforts to ensure the protagonist is constantly challenged, but ultimately the task Jon faces is a ludicrously difficult one. Uniting Westeros — or even just the North — against the White Walkers with a band of thieving rapists and a dragon he can only use for mass murder doesn't exactly seem easy. You have to have the plot armour of a protagonist to make any progress at all.

    Anyway, it's a good story, albeit not without its flaws. The most impressive aspect of it is the characterisation. Every character's voice feels true to the original books and clear in their own way. A lot of thought has clearly gone into plotting the story and it's worthy of respect. The way Jon's character develops — the dejected manner in which he becomes more ruthless, whilst still not departing too far from his fundamental nature — is legitimately interesting and convincing.

    There is an issue with the fact that some POVs are simply not as interesting as others, and in the author's efforts to flesh out the perspectives and motivations within the story he can sometimes make it drag. But it's not one that prevents you from enjoying the story.
     
  3. Cxjenious

    Cxjenious Supreme Mugwump

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    1. Watch your mouth, you filthy uncle-fucker.
    2. We just didn't understand why he didn't destroy the Boltons like he destroyed the Freys. They were both guilty, and the Boltons were an immediate threat. Granted, a more pragmatic Jon Snow means way less plot.
     
  4. serpentguy

    serpentguy Second Year

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    What does this even mean?

    Because the Boltons weren't standing around waiting to be dragon'd. They immediately scattered their army into guerrilla tactics, while Roose and co holed up in Winterfell with a load of hostages, including (supposedly) Jon's sister. He thought that he couldn't destroy them without killing Arya.
     
  5. Cxjenious

    Cxjenious Supreme Mugwump

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    1. Pretty self explanatory. Your uncle is your father's brother, so...

    It's also a joke, born of the great Terrence and Phillip of South Park fame. The song goes, "Shut your fucking face, uncle fuckerrrr! Etc."

    2. Didn't the Boltons abandon WInterfell?
     
  6. The Magician

    The Magician Muggle

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    The story just updated again, with the final chapter. It was pretty disapointing
     
  7. Vira

    Vira Order Member

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    Final chapter? It's over? o_O
     
  8. Paradise

    Paradise Seventh Year DLP Supporter

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    No idea what he is on, the first book is over yeah, but there are still more coming?
     
  9. Vira

    Vira Order Member

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    Okay, I read it. Book one is over, the next chapter will be an epilogue, and then starts the next book where it looks like Dany will enter the story.
     
  10. Diablo Snowblind

    Diablo Snowblind Squib

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    Why? I thought it was pretty great, myself. Just about every reviewer/commenter seems to say the same; you're literally the only person I've seen so far across the fanfiction.net and AO3 reviews to have anything bad to say about that conclusion.
     
  11. Donimo

    Donimo Seventh Year

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    Thats because ffn and ao3 reviews are for wanking the author and begging updates.
     
  12. Methos

    Methos Seventh Year

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    I stopped to read the fic, when it was clear the author going to contrive everything and bend the universe just to fuck Jon Snow.
    Awarding plot armors and weapons to his enemies just to give Jon some challenge, while diminishing Jon abilities or making him dumb to make things fair.

    Just like all the bad Superman comics/movies
     
  13. Jester

    Jester Seventh Year DLP Supporter

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    I don't really get the argument that Jon is getting fucked. He has fought duels against multiple white walkers, owned Stannis and his army, some how survived a blizzard fight surrounded by enemies and traitors in his dragon guard. He kills an undead wyrm and holds off the horde of wights with bad assery.

    Ramsey actually being smarter than a crazed murder weasel is a big step up for this fandom. Legit a pretty solid plan vs a dragon. Roose actually felt like he had a real plan, and took a phyric victory in his own sociopathic way.

    This feels a ton like the books in how shit gets thrown at Jon, and then other shit he has no experience in blows up in his face.

    Is it perfect?

    No, but it's a pretty entertaining story as long as you go in knowing that Jon gets equally good and bad luck through out. I don't get why everyone expects Jon to burn down every enemy, and be a conqueror. His entire mission has been uniting the living vs the Others.

    My biggest issue is the potrayal of the Walkers as near child like in their enthusiasm.

    I think it's easily a 4.5/5. Not perfect but easily a top ten story in this fandom.
     
  14. Donimo

    Donimo Seventh Year

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    I'll give my point of view on the issue. I enjoy this fic, though I'm a few chapters behind and I'm having trouble mustering the energy to continue it.

    At the beginning this was easily the best of asoiaf fanfiction. The divergence was interesting, it was well written, and it had what most fanfiction lacks, conflict. This continued for awhile with Jon having difficulty surviving and mustering a following in the north. He manages to get the Wildlings together, get a handle on the dragon and win his battle with Stannis. This is when the story began to diminish in quality.

    All throughout this first part of the story Jon is getting stronger. He's learning, he's gaining support, and he's getting control over a flying WMD. The author who had previously done such a good job in creating genuine conflict goes too far in trying to make Jon struggle. Jon is stronger, so he needs to face greater adversity. This is simple dramatic law. The issue is in the implementation since much of what happens relies upon Jon suddenly becoming stupid, and ridiculously complex plots that couldn't have possible worked.

    There is also an angst problem, but that's separate.
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Seventh Year DLP Supporter

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    The weakness of Jon is really true to his character though. He's not ruthless. As the story progresses Jon becomes more and more violent, and less willing to compromise. A ton of this feels like people expect that a Dragon equals winning easily.

    In the books Dany shows us that it doesn't work like that at all. This Jon feels more like Dany than almost any I've ever read. I don't think any of the plots seem extremely convoluted to be honest. Jon doesn't know really anything about politics because of his Bastard status, and ruling the Wildlings is nothing like dealing with the Northern Lords.

    It just feels a bit nitpicky to attack Jon having too hard of a time when shit like the Red Wedding and Reek are a thing in the actual books.
     
  16. Donimo

    Donimo Seventh Year

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    I don't have a problem with Jon struggling, I have a problem with the ways in which he did. Jon should have a hard time uniting the North, but the difficulties lay in different ways. Sometimes a dragon does make for an easy victory. For instance when assaulting a castle that can't really be taken by other methods. Also Jon isn't true to his character. I mentioned the angst in my post, and that is a product of fanon entirely. The only time canon Jon behave that way was when he was first at the wall and pissed at everyone, Tyrion dealt with that quickly. This all happened before he made friends with the other recruits. Jon is also a lot more competent in canon than he is often shown here. Which was the comment I made about his becoming an idiot for the sake of plot. Jon would've received much the same education as Rob, and Ned probably intended for Jon to rule a keep one day.

    You compare Jon to Daenerys here, but you shouldn't be. Jon isn't a foreign conqueror as she is. He isn't overthrowing the status quo, he isn't destroying the local culture. He's Ned Stark's son, he was raised in Winterfell and he's fighting a hated enemy. It shouldn't be easy, and he should constantly be struggling with maintaining peace between the northmen and the wildlings. He should have to deal with the struggles of politics, with the logistics of the wars and the coming winter. He should have to fight against the guerrilla tactics from the remnants of the rather easily broken Bolten army.

    The constant setbacks Jon faces in this are so contrived my suspension of disbelief can't deal. Every time it happens I don't feel the excitement from the conflict I feel annoyed because I already know the outcome and this is just bullshit there for the sake of it.

    The Red Wedding was excellent in canon. This great plot against Jon isn't. It's a multi pronged attack across hundreds of miles somehow occurring simultaneously. It's an impossibility given the tech we're working with. Never mind the pirates that show up from a couple thousand miles away just at the right time.

    Edited by request, Zombie
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2018
  17. Dagro

    Dagro Second Year

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    He also trys to be close to Martin on the POV jumps, but they felt often very forced and even worse, repeated information, rehashed stuff we already knew or was just not that interesting to read about. I get the points made about Ramsay, the mind boggling northern conspiracy etc. But for me it really started already with Stannis. What the fuck. It's like this fic where two allied armys fall upon each other and basically only realize it once, only when the commanders are left standing.

    Instead of putting in some character work, it's basically: lol!R'hllor. There is a lot of stuff that felt really contrived, but there were also parts I liked.

    To be honest, the 'Dragon dream' snipped, was one of my favorite ASoIaF world/history building scenes.
     
  18. Jester

    Jester Seventh Year DLP Supporter

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    A big part of Jon developing is how he deals with the aftermath of getting back to the wall after they betray Mormont. That doesn't happen here. He gets thrown into saving the Wildlings after a period of only having animal companions.

    Also Jon's a bastard who Ned let go to the Wall and take the Black. Not something you do for a kid you're planning on lifting up. Also Jon gives no indication in Canon of thinking he has a place in the world. The books never specify his education, but makes a big point about Tully values of Family. I really doubt Jon was allowed in the lessons for Robb that were about managing the North, especially with Lady Stark shown as being so cold to him.

    Also in the eyes of the North Jon looks like a foreign conqueror. The Wildlings being led by a displaced bastard, and deserter whose lost almost all resemblance to the Starks, who even Sansa and Bran don't recognize at first, isn't going to buy a ton of good will.

    Burning down the Dreadfort leads to everyone believing that he is just like the savages he leads. The Twins is easily justified by them breaking Guest rights. A Bastard King of the Wildlings who appears to be usurping the true Stark line isn't an attractive Ally for the North. Especially when his justification is so hard to believe.

    Unless I missed a date the perspective doesn't state the raid happened at the exact same time as the Battle of Snows, which didn't seem very convoluted outside of no one knowing the face of Bolton's Bastard son? Also having the maesters against the figurehead of a new Northern Cult isn't unrealistic, and just as believable as the Lannisters plot in the Red Wedding in my opinion.
     
  19. Puzzled

    Puzzled High Inquisitor

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    I don’t think that comparison holds because Daenerys can’t control her dragons. Granted she does have the edge militarily with her Unsullied, but it’s not the same kind of immediate unmatched power that Sonagon provides.
     
  20. Jester

    Jester Seventh Year DLP Supporter

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    Jon does have more control, but it's been shown that Jon struggles in controlling Sonagon early on. Sonagon is much older than Dany's Dragons so I get the point that it's a different context.

    The comparison to Dany is more that at this point Jon is invading the North with the Wildlings. We know it's because of the White Walkers, but for a lot of the North it looks like a Stark Bastard is trying to make a big power play. The big thing is he's not trying to subjugate the North with overwhelming might in Sonagon, just like Dany doesn't allow her Dragons free reign due to the optics, Jon is afraid of using the power for a very similar reason.

    I see similarities there, but I also understand the difference of Sonagon and the three young Dragons. Jon is a morally torn character who is pulled deeper into the violent, more pragmatic leadership of the Wildlings. I enjoy it a lot.
     
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