1. DLP Flash Christmas Competition + Writing Marathon 2024!

    Competition topic: Magical New Year!

    Marathon goal? Crank out words!

    Check the marathon thread or competition thread for details.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Introducing for your Perusing Pleasure

    New Thread Thursday
    +
    Shit Post Sunday

    READ ME
    Dismiss Notice

Dumbledore and the greater good

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Scrittore, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. darklordmike

    darklordmike Headmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,125
    Location:
    USA
    Damnit, Taure, you made me break out my books and do research. I think several of your assumptions here are wrong, though admittedly the last couple chapters of Deathly Hallows are criminally vague. I apologize for the tl;dr, but it was necessary.

    Actually, I think his aim is highly disputable here. Dumbledore’s plan was to manipulate Harry into willingly sacrificing himself, thus providing the same sort of protection for the wizarding world that Harry’s mother had provided him. Harry’s voluntary death is enough to fulfill the prophecy, and it’s enough to make Voldemort mortal and vulnerable again.

    When they’re talking in King’s Cross after Harry’s ‘death,’ it’s clear that Dumbledore didn’t have a plan for actually killing Voldemort. He tells Harry it’s his choice whether or not to go back, and he doesn’t insist that the fate of the wizarding world depends on it:


    There’s no mention of the Elder Wand nonsense here, because Dumbledore never intended Harry to become its master:

    And, no, Dumbledore didn’t intend for Snape to give Harry the Elder Wand at a later time. At least that’s what Harry’s interpretation of Dumbledore’s words is. Here he is talking to Voldemort:


    In short, Dumbledore intended Harry’s sacrifice to simultaneously kill the horcrux within him, make Voldemort mortal again, and provide the wizarding world with love-based protection based on Harry’s sacrifice. He never had a plan for Harry to defeat Voldemort in combat. The ‘either must die at the hand of the other’ was fulfilled when Harry allowed Voldemort to ‘kill’ him. After that it was up to Harry whether he wanted to go back or join his parents.

    This is not true. Harry’s survival was not dependent on his willing sacrifice. He was guaranteed to survive because his blood was flowing through Voldemort’s veins:

    There’s no mention at all here of the voluntary sacrifice or the Hallows. Harry didn’t need to possess the ring to survive—he used it to talk to his parents and Sirius, who bolstered his resolve and encouraged him to go through with the sacrifice.

    What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that every other memory from Snape was true, but this one was fabricated somehow? Or that Snape and Dumbledore were acting out a scene to convince Harry to sacrifice himself? I don’t see any reason to doubt its veracity.

    Indeed, Dumbledore insists that Harry can’t know about his ‘master plan’ until the very end, as the knowledge would be too terrible to bear: “Harry must not know, not until the last moment, not until it is necessary, otherwise how could he have the strength to do what must be done?”

    You’re right about that, as it isn’t until the end of GoF that Harry’s survival is insured. But it’s not as if Dumbledore hadn’t known all along that Harry was a horcrux or that he would have to die. It’s just that Voldemort’s method of resurrection allowed Dumbledore’s plan the chance to include Harry’s survival. He knew, or at least suspected, that Harry was a horcrux all along. From OotP:


    So Dumbledore knows that Harry is a horcrux all along, although he doesn’t tell him that here. He knows that Harry will have to die at Voldemort’s hands in order for them to defeat Voldemort, and he plans to make that happen. If you don’t call that a sacrifice for the greater good, I don’t know what else to call it.

    Dumbledore had a choice: keep Harry from his fate, let him live a happy life and ignore his ‘duty,’ or sacrifice him to Voldemort for the rest of the world to be safe. That’s a choice for the greater good: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

    When Harry learns of it in DH, he thinks of it as a betrayal. The following is from his POV, but there’s no reason to believe his understanding of Dumbledore’s plan is inaccurate. Nothing that Dumbledore says later contradicts it:

    So there you have it. Harry certainly sees himself as a sacrificial lamb that needed to die for the greater good. And I don’t really think you can deny that Dumbledore intended him to be a sacrifice all along. It was a lucky break that Voldemort gave Harry a way to come back.

    EDIT: Sorry about the separation between quotes from the same paragraph. I've tried to fix it, but it just reverts back.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2009
  2. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    Disagree here. It's not enough for Voldemort to be mortal. He has to be mortal and dead. Harry's job is to vanquish him. Vanquish to me means utterly destroy. Dumbledore would not be satisfied with Harry's death making Voldemort mortal. A Voldemort mortal with Harry dead is still in effect an immortal Voldemort - because Harry is the only one who can/will kill him.

    It's not from canon but from JKR's site, in which she states it wasn't just the blood transfer but the fact that Harry was a willing sacrifice and the fact that he was the true master of the Elder wand that made it work.

    Had any of these factors been missing it might not have worked:

    [FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]

    [/FONT]
    I mean to say that Dumbledore lied to Snape to make Snape think a certain thing and then requested that Snape show the memory to Harry to make Harry think the same thing: that Harry must sacrifice himself.


     
  3. darklordmike

    darklordmike Headmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,125
    Location:
    USA
    A perfectly reasonable position to hold, as that's the way most people interpret the prophecy. The trouble is that Dumbledore didn't seem to have any plans in place for Harry to actually defeat Voldemort. It was Harry's possession of the Elder Wand that allowed his victory, and that came about by accident. The quotes from my earlier post suggest that Dumbledore never intended for Harry to be master of the wand.

    Likewise, Dumbledore is pretty casual when explaining Harry's choice to him. He doesn't even hint that Harry will be dooming the world to darkness if he chooses to remain dead. This gives credence to the possibility that the prophecy was fulfilled when Voldemort struck down Harry with the AK. After that, all bets are off and Voldemort can be taken down by anyone.

    Bah, blasted authorial pronouncements. She does note that 'elder wand + lily's blood' doesn't necessarily equal survival, but you're right: it does imply that the Hallows played a role in Harry's survival. I don't think there's a clear explanation for how Harry survived, but certainly it's dubious to think that Dumbledore knew he would survive. He admits several times that it was all educated guesswork.
     
  4. Dirk Diggory

    Dirk Diggory Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    249
    Er, yes... but how was this actually supposed to happen? Dumbledore's intent was for the Elder Wand's power to be broken. But it's only because his plan fails and through the deus ex machina of the Elder Wand that Voldemort dies. If Dumbledore's plan works as described, Harry "dies", then walks back into Hogwarts and dies again, for good. Though now Voldemort is mortal so somebody else can kill him. Perhaps that was his plan.
     
  5. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    Or maybe Dumbledore had greater faith in Harry than we do. He certainly managed to pull off victories in the past, despite being outclassed. Additionally, Dumbledore seemed to think in HBP that Harry having a whole soul while Voldemort's was fragmented would give him some kind of advantage.
     
  6. Mordac

    Mordac Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,318
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham, England
    You all seem to be overlooking something big here.

    It was through pure happenstance that Harry learned the location of the Cup horcrux. If he hadn't been a dumbass and said Voldemort's name when he knew there was a Taboo on it, he would have never been captured and would've never found out through Bellatrix where it was. Without that, everything else crumbles.

    The thing is, Rowling could have used the opportunity to make Harry competent for once and have him say it on purpose with the intent to be captured to discover some information, but that would just be boring right Jo?
     
  7. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    Lol, I think it was more than just the cup that was serendipitous.
     
  8. Mordac

    Mordac Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,318
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham, England
    Well, true, but that was the most egregious case IMO. He had an idea the locket had some connection to Grimmauld place, and already knew Nagini was the snake.

    But then again, you're agreeing with me. The fact that one or more Horcruces were only found trough pure happenstance argues against there being some sort of overarching amazing plan where everything was designed to go right.

    EDIT: I'm not agreeing with darklordmike either. I'm just applying Hanlon's Razor, " Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2009
  9. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    Ah, but you're forgetting Dumbledore's miraculous ability to apparently predict the future more perfectly than any seer.
     
  10. Mordac

    Mordac Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,318
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Birmingham, England
    I can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not. :awesome
     
  11. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    Nor can I <_<

    I mean, it's ridiculous... but he does seem to have this ability, gifted to him by JKR as a retcon to make everything work.
     
  12. Redeye

    Redeye Penultimate Lurker DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    494
    It almost makes you wonder why he didn't teach divination instead of transiguration in Hogwarts. The man clearly has a gift and Trelawny only has two prophecies(assuming) in a what 13-14 year span under her belt. Dumbledore can predict the entire fall of a Dark Lord with the giving of 3 simple items to 3 teens not even done with school. Damned good I say

    Edit: Ok so I don't know who taught divination all those years ago while Dumbles was still teaching, perhaps he/she could have been more accomplished
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2009
  13. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,511
    Location:
    One of the Shires
    High Score:
    9,373
    Actually, Trelawney turned out to have predicted several things remarkably accurately even without falling into the trance of true prophecy. Here is a list of them.
     
  14. Redeye

    Redeye Penultimate Lurker DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    494
    I retract my former statement.
    Bitch's record is impeccable

    <filler>
     
Loading...