Saruman's post got my battle spirit to rise again and consider war in the magical world.

This one deals with the goblins, nasty little green things that they are. Canon does not give us much to work upon and fanon simplifies the Goblin race to a bloody cart driver that appears 99.99% of the time, toghether with Ragnarok (almost everyone uses that name as the leader of the goblins, I wonder who came up with it first).

I am diverging however. We know from the History of Magic that there have been several Goblin rebellions and we can deduct that the Goblins must have some strength behind their claims, otherwise they would have been enslaved like the house-elves.

The question I pose today is what makes the goblins strong? We know that they don't use magic in the same style as Wizards. Their numbers must not be too great either, otherwise their rebellions could have been more successful.

Goblin magic has been elaborated upon in fanon, but canon makes them similar to smiths and metalworkers. I think that their magic cannot be used directly in combat, as the wizards' but is used in more subtle ways. Such as making wards, improving items.

As such, I see the Goblins do combat in pure medieval style, encased in full plate armour, with maces, flails and the sort. I see a Goblin cavalry, riding a magical beast. I see a famous goblin, carrying around the severed heads of the wizards he has defeated in combat.

We know wizards prevailed in the end and JKR portrays the goblins as filthy little devils, because Godric could not do something wrong in his lifetime. I can see from a military standpoint why the wizards would win, but I think the goblins had a fair chance every now and then.

Ideas? Discuss...

 

Well, they do control the wizard's money and vaults, so that's huge. An embargo or something like that would be the goblin's weapon, not their magic. Also we can assume that they're extremely good at creating security wards since they did create the banks.

 

Maybe they are rather exceptional with animal training too. Dragons in the bank and all.

Also, perhaps they have an edge with their knowledge of "Olde Magic".
Since most of the curse breakers that explore tombs and such seem to work for them.

I really can't think of much else. Canon didn't give much info on them.

 

Not sure I if I read it in a fic or if it was fact I'll have to look it up, but I believe at one point goblins were allowed to use wands, but that was taken away from them after a rebellion. So I think its really wands that give wizards the advantage, and thus why they are the main race. I think goblins have the ability to do certain non-wand magic, but are severely weakened by not being able to use one.

 

I used worg (a shape changing potion) in Bungle allowing them to mix shape changing with conventional tactics against wizards.

In TML, the Goblins are very close to a revolt. If you see one, it's a sign that the story will go to a trilogy. It depends on if the idea of the Goblins throwing their lot in with Voldemort appeals to me. Lord knows they do it with Harry all the time for no other reason than he remembers Griphooks name!

I like them using swarm tactics against wizards who aren't used to fighting such numbers. One of the forms they could take was a firebat. I stated that the "Beater Bat" evolved out of airborne tactics for combatting goblin firebats. The other two forms worg would give is a jackal or a smallish brown bear.

They would use Trolls and Giants (who also have no love for wizards) as shock troops. Hire necromancers for years to create Inferi for them (imagine whole vaults filled with hundreds or thousands of undead waiting to flood Diagon Alley when the next rebellion is declared perhaps on the final weekend before school starts when the alley is full of defenseless wizard children shopping for their school supplies...

Not only could they use poisoned weapons, but why not potion grenades. Something as simple as sneezing powder (especially if there is an antidote that the gobs have already taken) could render a spell caster open to attack if used properly. Slingshots with circular glass balls filled with whatever potion could be used to deliver them from a distance and again, massed fire substitiutes for the disparity in power between the opponents.

Perhaps magic protects against modern firearms, but cold iron slugs fired from a smoothbore musket can penetrate a Protego from an average wizard. Picture hordes of goblin musketeers descending on wizards and fighting in a style similar to the Napoleonic era.

There's plenty of fertile ground to play with here.

Jim

 

That's pretty much it.

I would also suspect that Gringotts was very well-fortified. It is a mine, one could imagine it being extensive so that with the opening of new vaults, they don't run out of room. Griphook in Book Seven implied that Goblins lived in Gringotts, which would further reinforce there being dwellings beneath the bank.

I would imagine their rebellions meant the goblins going forth, fighting until the wizards get the upper hand, and then retreating and closing Gringott's doors as the wizards place it under siege.

Whatever the embellishments, but as the economy begins to decline, it would cause the wizards to try all the harder to conquer the goblins, and eventually both sides get tired of the fighting and agree to a truce.

With iron, if you use bullets, then it doesn't make sense if the goblins don't use iron as armor, something I'm planning to do in my own story. The Ministry responds through the Unspeakables, who engineer a breed of dragons whose breath cause the iron to rust.

 

I agree that their power must lie in their enchanted items which negate a wizard's attacks or protections. I can imagine them using some elaborate rituals to empower weapons and armor, rather than channeling magic through a wand, which must be why they want to be able to use wands in the first place. The wizards apparently fear that it would simplify the creation of powerful magical items, allowing the goblins to gain the upper hand.

 

As was discussed in the new super weapon thread, apparently goblin metal can absorb things, making items stronger. In a good old Diablo II style, it would be as if Charsi would magically imbue an item for you.

As such, Goblins could wear full plate armour, laced with protective charms and shields, unbreakable charms etc. Of course none of those would stop an Avada Kedavra straight to the chest, but it would give them a fairer chance of standing up to the wizards.

Their economic power must not be ignored, since they control the purse strings, but war would be a risky business for both wizards and goblins. Goblins, as losers would have to pay reparations to the Ministry, which would not bode well for their finances.

I don't think goblins are capable of using a wand, since that seems to be an exclusive brand of magic available to wizards only. Plus, having everyone capable of using a wand sort of degrades it in my eyes. I stick to goblins being capable of erecting good wards and protective charms, as well as master engineers, if one is to consider that they presumably build gringotts, but weak in offensive magic.

 

House Elves aren't human and they can use wands quite easily (remember Winky being accused of sending up the Dark Mark), so I would imagine other non-human races would be just as capable. This would especially apply to goblins as they're more humanoid than most magical creatures and thus have hands and arms necessary for effective spell casting.

Aekiel

 

You're right Aekiel, I forgot about Winky the Death Eater. However, I still don't think that Goblins can use wands effectively. They are banned from using a wand by Act #3982 of the MoM, but they seem to work without it. Some creatures might be able to use a wand, but it would be much as Ron Weasley trying to use the Elder Wand, it would reject them completely.

As such, a goblin using a wand would find his magic too weak to be effective. Plus, how do Wizards keep all the magical creatures in line? Superior numbers are not a variant, since servant races tend to be more numerous overall then the masters. It must be their proficiency with a wand, which has tremendous offensive capability.

 

Was I always incorrect in assuming goblin rebellions were not Goblin V Goblin affairs?

Seriously, I find the idea of an entire species being united a bit silly.

 

That there is a law prohibiting no-human wizards from having a wand is proof by itself that wizards aren't the only ones who can use them. This does not mean goblins in particular can, just that some magical "creatures" can.

 

Why do you find the idea of an entire species being united silly? Sure, there might be goblins that do not care for the greater good of the Goblin nation, but I see them pretty much as united as they can get.

You forget one thing. Division is a recent and medieval occurrence. The rest of history is dominated by large empires, not by puny little states concentrated on anti-smoking laws and political correctness.

I will give you a sole example in history. The Roman Empire (City, Republic, Principate etc). The Romans' view of the world, with them and the Hellenistic cultures being civilized and the rest of the world being barbarian (the origin of the world), set them out as a different race. A Roman would consider himself to have close to nothing in common with an unwashed Gaul from the north. And the Roman Empire, save for its death throes in 476 AD, was as united as you could get in a ''race''. Sure, there was political tension, assassination, even rebellion and a few civil wars, but the Empire was united.

Why is it so hard to believe that races can unite for a common goal? In this case, the goblins, whose autonomy is severely restricted by the Ministry, must unite or be gradually weakened one by one until they are reduced to the status of house elves.

 

As to the Goblin question - I think most of what we "know" about them is crock. Harry just remembers constantly hearing about goblin rebellions, but he knows nothing of wizarding history, and as the victor writes said history, who knows.

The bank is like Azkaban - neat history, and badass defense in theory, but in practice has proven to be found sorely wanting. Two break-ins that we know of, the second of which had the subtleness of Hagrid, drunk on a bad day. Combined with the fact that Voldemort's henchman just take over the bank leads me to believe that the only reason they run the damn place is because the wizards can't be bothered to do it themselves.

That was, I think, my favorite part of book 7. Whereas fannon Harry always greets Griphook with a wave and smile, establishing a lifelong friendship, Canon Harry listened to Hermione bitch about equal rights and then went and plotted to fuck over Griphook. Brilliant.

 

The fact is the Roman Empire DID have rebellions. If you heard about a Roman rebellion, would it not be Roman v Roman?

Even if the Goblins are relatively united, if their history contains "rebellions" I'd assume it would be a group of goblins fighting against the united horde.

 

Roman Civil Wars were fought by Romans for control of the Republic and Empire. However, for the most part they presented a united front to the rest of the world/Empire. Rebellions though were conquered non-Romans trying to overthrow Roman rule.

On the subject of Goblin Rebellions, Hermione mentions in PoA that "the Inn" in Hogsmeade (its not specified if its the Three Broomsticks, the Hogshead, or a different tavern/inn) was the headquarters of the 1612 Goblin Rebellion. I find it hard to believe that Goblins would rebel against Wizards and then use an Inn within a few miles of Hogwarts as a HQ. This has to be in reference to a rebellion against the Goblin Establishment.

 

One of the things that has bothered me most about Rowling's books is her childish naivity when it comes to all things we enjoy as a society. Do we enjoy Ginny's sudden meteoric rise to the top of the world? No. We would have rather seen some semblance of romance bring a worthwhile character into the heart of the hero. Her characters are often one dimensional, and even during the best moments of the series, I'm left wondering why she didn't mention this, or develop that.

It seems to me that Rowling has left all of these plot points open (Goblin Rebellions for one) because, either accidentally or on purpose, she wants to show that these children are still children and do not know everything about the ways of the world. For the most part, the only things we find out about in the series are things that revolve around Harry Potter and the other main characters.

That's the reason why Fanfiction is so great, imo, because all of the subplots that Rowling never chose to write can be brought into consideration here.

As for Goblins, there are few things I'd like to bring up. First of all, I think it's foolish to believe that all Goblins belong to a cave underneath Diagon Alley. Isn't it possible that there a gathering of Goblins in other wizarding areas? And if Goblins have been forced to live in this one area, isn't that cause for a rebellion, or at least the result of a rebellion in the past?

I always pictured Goblin magic in the likeness of House Elf magic; quick, everyday use that doesn't need wand waving, with an importance in cave use and warding. Also, surely they need something that counts the wizarding money locked in their vaults.

I also pictured any Goblin Rebellions in the likeness of tight ranks with weapons you'd expect from fierce looking creatures, hoping to overwhelm the enemy with size and strength. But again, it's naive to think that a Goblin couldn't just as easily practice stealth to chop a wizard's head off.