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Abandoned Harry Potter and the Boy Who Lived by The Santi - M

Discussion in 'General Fics' started by ulkser, Sep 11, 2009.

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  1. KrzaQ

    KrzaQ Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    As fas as we've seen in Santi's universe, Animagi are only rare because the ability to change into an animal *not* of choice isn't really useful, especially compared to amount of work required. I mean, even in canon, there's no mention of someone actually trying and failing to become one.

    Edit: I feel stupid now :eek:
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  2. Basileus777

    Basileus777 Squib

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    From Chapter 6
    There's also been references to how Kira's family hasn't demonstrated the ability. It certainly seems to be a rare ability that runs in families.
     
  3. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    OK, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and argue the opposite: Either is Snape indeed an animagus, he took a page out of Krum's book and did a partial self transfiguration, or he created a potion that gave him wings or transformed him into a bat.

    I'm going to start with the language. "With a tingle of horror, Harry saw in the distance a huge, bat like shape flying through the darkness". So just to state the obvious, Harry saw something shaped like a bat flying through the darkness. Now think of what Harry means here by "bat like shape". When one thinks of a bat and its shape, the first thing you would think of is it's wings. A bat is pretty much a fucked up looking rat with wings. If you want to say what a bat's defining characteristic would be, you would probably point to its wings.

    Now how exactly does a wizard flying through the air look like a bat? Voldemort wasn't described as a "bat like shape" when he was going all DBZ in early DH, am I right? A wizard flying through the air looks...like a fucking wizard flying through the air. If you want to say that Snape was just pulling a Voldemort, the language being used here just doesn't make sense. There are many other, more appropriate adjectives or descriptions that Harry (or JKR) could have used to describe flying!Snape other than "bat like shape". In fact, if I were to describe a wizard flying through the air, using Voldemort as an example, the words "bat like shape" wouldn't even enter my mind. It probably wouldn't even be in my first 50 attempts at description, although I'm not a writer so perhaps it would be for one of you guys. What I'm saying is that the language being used here is deliberate and meaningful, otherwise Harry would have just said something along the lines of "a indistinct human-shaped object/thing."

    To sum up: a flying wizard does not look like a giant bat. Harry is describing the shape of something. A bat's defining characteristic is its wings. Thus we can possibly conclude that Harry saw the silhouette of wings, and given the "huge" qualifier, wings attached to a larger than normal body...like perhaps that of a wizard.

    Keep in mind that Snape doesn't actually possess any real visual characteristics of a bat. Quirrell describes him in PS to Harry as (paraphrased), "swooping around like a giant bat." This is, of course, referring either to Snape's flair for the dramatic, his annoying ability to pop up out of nowhere and cause trouble and get all up in your business, or perhaps even his gait; the manner in which he walks. Even given this, it doesn't make sense to describe flying!Snape, in the darkness of night, as a "huge, bat like shape", unless he actually shared the physical appearance of a bat, such as the visible silhouette of wings or a wingspan.

    Also, if you want to say that Snape was flying Voldemort style, I put this question to you: how did he learn it? I don't remember all the details, but from what I remember of the DH chase scene, everyone was surprised at Voldemort's ability to fly, as if it was a completely new thing; something that no other wizard has ever achieved before. So how exactly did Snape learn it? Voldemort likes being special and different from others, and coming up with the ability to fly is another thing that separates him from other wizards, that makes him "greater". The likelihood of him teaching someone else his own unique magic, which probably hasn't ever been done before in Wizarding history, is absolutely miniscule. There is no reason I can think of for Voldemort to teach Snape his flying spell, and keep in mind that this isn't fanon; Voldemort wouldn't have written down "Flying Without A Broom 101" directions in some book or paper that any Death Eater could access. Snape discovering the secret to Voldemort's spell in that way is highly unlikely.

    Thus we are left with the possibility of Snape reverse engineering Voldemort's own unique flying spell after seeing in action only once or twice. He was on a broom in the chase sequence; we can probably assume he did not have the ability to fly at that point in time. This again, is unlikely. Snape is a great wizard, possibly right behind Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Grindelwald when it comes to skill. But to reverse engineer Voldemort's flying spell would take a fucking genius. Snape is good, but I'm not sure he's that good. The flying spell isn't some schoolyard hex like Levicorpus; I doubt it would be so easily recreated. So either Snape's really been holding out on us, he found out how to fly like Voldemort in some other way (insert your explanation here), or he did not in fact fly like Voldemort, and used some other method.

    If I had to put money on it, I would say that Snape either pulled a Krum and transfigured himself a set of wings, or he created a potion to the same effect. The potion is the more likely of the choices obviously, given his vast expertise and talent with them. We know he was making modifications to existing potions when he was still in school, so that definitely points to the possibility of Snape creating a unique flying/transforming potion. I do not believe anything is ever said about Snape's skill in Transfiguration, and I don't believe that he ever performs an in scene transfiguration like Dumbledore with the sleeping bags in PoA, so yeah, Snape using some kind of potion (that gives him a "huge, bat like shape") seems the most likely of explanations.

    /devil's advocate
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  4. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Either that, or he flew like Voldemort.
     
  5. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    ...How?

    Provide reasonable explanation please.
     
  6. Palver

    Palver High Inquisitor

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    Bat like shape - billowing black robes probably. Voldemort knows that Snape isn't impressed by money and values knowledge and magical prowess, so he probably gifted him this technique as a reward for killing Dumbledore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  7. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    That's McGonagall's biased perception; I'm not sure we can take her word as truth here. I highlighted above why Voldemort teaching Snape his flying spell is unlikely; namely, it is inconsistent with his character.

    Billowing robes is a possibility, but then you could also then apply the same description to Voldemort, who is also probably sporting billowing robes. So why is Snape a "huge, bat like shape", while Voldemort is not?
     
  8. Palver

    Palver High Inquisitor

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    Voldemort was prepared for an aerial fight, so he probably fastened them so they wouldn't get in the way, Snape on the other hand was forced to flee rather unexpectedly so the robes were unfastened, and thus formed "bat like shape" in the flight.
     
  9. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    Makes sense, but I'm still not really all that convinced on "billowing robes". Sell it to me. And the "how" behind the flying is still left unanswered. That isn't very satisfying.
     
  10. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    We already know that Voldemort taught Bellatrix, so it's not so unlikely that he would teach Snape, his new favourite.

    With regards to the language used, there's this fun thing called metaphor which you might like to read up on. Snape has been referred to as a bat in the books before. This does not mean he is actually a bat - just like Voldemort, when flying, was said to be "like smoke on the wind" but wasn't actually made of smoke.

    Further, as Palver said, McGonagall actually says Voldemort taught him new tricks. Why would she say that if she didn't see him flying like Voldemort? I'm not seeing where any bias can enter the picture here.

    Finally, one last point against taking the "bat" metaphor literally: who's ever heard of a "huge" bat? They're quite small.

    God, I can't believe we're even discussing this.
     
  11. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    From Bellatrix's mouth. She's a braggart. And while I can easily accept that Voldemort taught Bellatrix some curses or whatever, him teaching Snape his flying magic is still very unlikely to me.

    I know what metaphor is guy, there's no need to get shitty with me. I explained above how he was described by Quirrel as "a great swooping bat", and how it really doesn't apply to the scene in question. If there are any other passages comparing Snape to a bat, please point them out.

    No, actually she doesn't.

    Not seeing any bias here? Are you kidding? Snape killed her mentor. At this point she still thinks Snape is a DE and has always been a DE. Of course that's going to cloud her judgement and make her think the worst of him. And she said that Snape "seems" to have learned some tricks from Voldemort; ie that's her personal perception. She's not stating a fact here.

    A "huge" bat could just be any bat that is bigger than average in size; similar to the way that someone might say, "Holy shit, look at that giant fucking rat!". As for Harry seeing a "huge, bat like shape", that is easily explained by wings. Harry is describing Snape with "huge" here, not bats in general. The "huge" is not connected to "bat like shape".
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  12. Mutt

    Mutt High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    It runs in families and James could do it. Plus, I don't think Santi would spend as much time as he has one Harry becoming one just to say that he couldn't.
     
  13. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    ... the fuck is this? o_o

    Demons, if you want to believe Snape is a Bat-Animagus, no one's stopping you. Just don't try to prove it with Canon facts :|


    Edit:

    Yes, that was what I meant :facepalm
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  14. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    I stated my case. Feel free to point out where you disagree.

    Also, as I said above in like the very first sentence, I'm purely playing DA here. I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. Giving Snape fans some hope.

    /bored
     
  15. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    That Snape killed Dumbledore is going to influence McGonagal's judgement of Snape, but it isn't going to alter the fucking light entering her eyeballs i.e. if she sees Snape as a bat, she isn't going to say "hey look, Voldemort taught him to fly!".

    Dude, it was quoted to you above and you yourself refer to it.

    Well it is to me. Snape killed Dumbledore. He basically won Voldemort's war for him. He got rid of the only barrier, in Voldemort's mind, to his complete domination. A single spell that does something impressive but not all that threatening isn't out of the question in terms of a reward.

    You didn't explain anything. You gave a bullshit excuse. "Bat" works well enough as a metaphor, once you get it in to your head that a metaphor isn't fucking literal. It doesn't mean that Snape is a bat e.g. has wings. It means something about his flight brings a bat to mind. It could simply be that it's Snape, who has previously been called a bat (notice, last time he was called a bat he didn't have wings either. Funny that.). It could be that there's a looming aspect to it. It could be a certain "swooping" nature of flight. It could be that Snape, at that point in time, is considered a Dark wizard, and bats are associated with dark places. It could be that bats are generally unpleasant creatures to encounter, like Snape. Or, as said above, it could be billowing robes.

    (Your reply to that "but she doesn't say that for Voldemort!" is a pile of crap and I'm surprised no-one called you on it. Why should JKR use the same description for the same act every time it's done, especially when by different people? In fact, it would be unusually bad writing if she had just copy/pasted the same imagery.)

    You're seriously reaching for anything that might validate your tenuous position. I don't even know why - in your own post you say you're playing devil's advocate.

    ...how is removing one of Snape's cooler skills giving Snape fans hope?

    Please, if you're bored, go jump off a cliff or something. Maybe you'll turn into a bat.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  16. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    I'll give you this one. I didn't argue this very effectively, and looking back, I agree with your assessment. McGonagall's words, on second glance, do greatly imply that Snape was flying like Voldemort, and that he might have been taught how to do it.



    Lets not forget that Snape was obligated, via Unbreakable Vow, to kill Dumbledore. The vow which Bellatrix witnessed personally, and most probably reported back to Voldemort. It is not so special as much as it is Snape just doing his duty and capitalizing on the situation. If any one of the other DE's at the tower killed Dumbledore, do you think Voldemort would reward them with his DBZ hax magic? Why is Snape special all of a sudden when any of the other DE hacks would have jumped at the chance to off Dumbledore when it became obvious that Draco was unable?



    "bat like shape" is pretty explicit. If Harry saw or meant anything other than "bat like shape", then why did he say those specific words? When is a "bat like shape" not a "bat like shape"? There's not really much wiggle room in those words. It's not referring to Snape's character, possible bat-like characteristics (?), or his appearance in flight, but his actual shape. The only question is what is causing the "bat like shape". The robes are a good explanation; I simply provided an alternative one.



    How is it cool that he simply learned it from Voldemort? How the fuck is that cool or interesting? Given Voldemort's knowledge, he probably could have taught any of the more talented DE's how to fly. It doesn't seem very special when you think about it like that. So he was taught a piece of impressive magic by an awesome wizard. Big deal.

    I think it's "cooler" if Snape came up with something on his own, through his own power; either an animagus transformation, a partial self transfiguration, some kind of potion, or what have you.


    U mad bro? What is with this all of a sudden? You find my argument that tedious, that worthless, that you want me to jump off a cliff? Chill the fuck out man.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  17. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Animagus and self-transfiguration are much more common than the ability to fly unaided, so I don't see how they're more impressive. Further, transfiguration too would have been taught to Snape - by McGonagall no less.

    Potion to make a person fly is a bit specialised to just be carrying around with you at all times.

    I'd say two things to that:

    1. Snape was already high in Voldemort's estimation before he killed Dumbledore.

    2. Who's to say that Voldemort wouldn't have taught flying to whichever Death Eater had killed Dumbledore?

    That Snape was obligated by the vow to kill Dumbledore shouldn't mitigate the act much, because he wasn't under obligation to make the vow in the first place.

    The wiggle room comes with "like". As in, it isn't the shape of a bat, but rather reminiscent in some way of the shape of a bat. And things can be associated with shapes in ways that are more than visual.

    My personality doesn't allow me to not reply. However, I still resent having to in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  18. addictedforlife

    addictedforlife High Inquisitor

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    Or The Santi could do it in order to have Harry fail in a major task the first time. Would introduce some bitterness into his personality, probably put an additional strain on his friendship with Krum, and show us (the reader) that Harry is still human.
     
  19. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    Agreed that animagus and self-transfiguration are more common, and thus less awesome. Snape does seem like the type that prepares for the unexpected, and while a flying potion is indeed very specialized and could only be used in very limited situations, I do not find it out of the realm of possibility that he happened to have one on him, knowing that the castle was being retaken and that he had to beat a hasty exit.



    Really? How do you figure? If we trust Bellatrix's words, Snape pretty much had to prostrate himself before Voldemort and explain away him hindering Quirrell at every step and helping out HP over the years. It seems Voldemort was highly suspicious of Snape when he came out of the cauldron. When and how did he become high in Voldemort's estimation?

    I dunno. Voldemort isn't exactly the sharing type, although I guess I can buy him doling out highly prized magical knowledge as a reward for killing the person he feared/loathed most.

    And I would argue that Snape was under obligation to make the vow. Narcissa begged Snape to do it, and I doubt it would look good when Bellatrix reported back to Voldemort that Snape refused to help in the task of taking out Voldemort's #1 target. I believe he was under duress when he made the vow due to Bellatrix's presence. I do not know if he would have agreed to the vow if the threat of Bellatrix wasn't present; most likely not as he really didn't want to kill Dumbledore.



    Point taken. But as much as you accused me of reaching to support my own position above, it seems you are doing the same here. We are both using language to support our positions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
  20. Spanks

    Spanks Chief Warlock

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    I think the answer is quite obvious. Snape was wearing a Batman costume.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010
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