You make good arguments, Churchey, but I'm not saying Albus doesn't know anything about the Goblet - he just doesn't know enough, and is assuming too much based on knowledge of other similar artifacts.

True... except there's no reason for character to be any part of qualifications for the Tournament. This drives home my point - Albus is talking of the Goblet as though it's the bloody Sorting Hat, trying to decide where you fit best. But if a Champion took the easiest way through the tasks, wouldn't he still win? And would that not prove him to be the best candidate? Does it matter if you're too cowardly to face the dragon, so you gave it food laced with poison or some other easy solution, for example? The champion should be the one who can best and fastest complete the tasks assigned from the Tournament. In canon, Albus burbles about 'extraordinary moral fiber', but we all know Harry got so many points because they knew he got there first. Heck, the other schools see it as natural and expected to cheat! Everybody knew about the dragons - were points deducted for that?

I don't know how people can miss this, but let me make it clear: nowhere is it said of the Tournament that it tests your morality. The Tournament is supposed to test courage, intelligence, resourcefulness, and magical ability. Which is probably why many consider cheating traditional - cheating proves you're resourceful enough to use any resources. Also, it's quite intelligent to do so (as long as you don't get caught. When Albus talks about morality, I tune him out - it's not manipulative Albus speaking, it's idealistic Albus, and I don't think anything he says is relevant to the Tournament (unless it's 'Nathan, you will defeat Harry in the Tournament with the power of LOVE').

 

What possible fucking reason do you have to believe this? This statement is based on nothing but your speculation.

For all we know, he could know every possible intricate detail about the cup.

 

Doesn't Harry get points in the Second Task (canon) for morality or something because he rescued Gabrielle?

 

Only because Dumbledore convinced other judges, not because there was a rule about that. That said, there's no explicit evidence to the contrary, except for Santi's Dumbledore's word.

 

This is reminding me of something. Something about certain books and their rarity.

 

Um... maybe because it makes a lot more sense for Albus not to know stuff than for the Goblet to be judging fucking morality of all things? (as I point out in the rest of my post)

In lack of further word from the Santi on what the fuck is going on with the Cup and Albus, I am reduced to what makes sense. And it makes no sense for the selector for a Tournament that tests courage, intelligence, resourcefulness, and magical ability to judge who would be the best competitor based on morality.

 

Nahh... Pretty sure Dumbledore implied that Krum would win out because of courage[which by the way is a morality based issue], and therefore advises Harry to try another approach. That doesn't conclude that Harry wouldn't be selected even if he went the initial route, just leaves things more to chance.

Mainly because doesn't want Harry to risk losing to Krum, I think we can safely assume that Dumbledore want's Harry to be selected; or at the very least want's him to have a good chance of being selected.

 

Everyone is thinking that Albus added the Age Line, because he wanted to stop younger students from entering, but what if he did it to increase Harry's chances to be the Champion? Assuming that there would be no additional obstacle and Dumbledore is right how the process of choosing participants for the Tournament works then Harry wouldn't have any chance to prove himself against Victor's actions of supposedly true Champion.

But Albus knew all along that Harry will want to enter the contest and because he sees him as a grandchild (and he probably reminds him of himself), Dumbledore wanted to help him and take out the big disadvantage he has when compared to Krum. Hence adding the ward.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I got it right this time.

 

You do make a good point, but going off of what the tournament's three tasks tested (which you listed as courage, intelligence, resourcefulness, and magical ability), sneaking your name into the cup through Viktor is resourceful, while finding a way through the age line on your own shows resourcefulness, intelligence, magical ability, and courage (in the sense of not taking the easy street).
And compared to both of those, Viktor shows courage in his life: standing up to those who belittle him, playing insanely in his quidditch matches to win no matter what, and doing the right thing consistently. He shows magical ability (although it is unappreciated), and he probably shows intelligence and resourcefulness as well. I don't want to use quidditch as an example again but the way Santi writes Viktor's play is that he not only catches the snitch but is a decimating factor on all parts of the field.

But most importantly, Viktor shows courage in entering a tournament he doesn't want to, but does anyway because he "thought out the repercussions of not entering" which also implies intelligence in forethought.

Harry entering through Viktor would not only not display his qualities, it would serve to actively make him look less champion-like. If he enters through Viktor, he shows that while he has or may have courage, magical ability, and intelligence, he chooses to take the easy path and rely on Viktor instead.

I believe it really comes down to the distinction between champion and competitor, because the participants in the triwizard tournaments are supposedly historically champions, not merely competitors.

And I should read the whole thread before responding because Calutron covers what wanted to say in his first sentence.

As a general reminder, at this point we are arguing about Canon support for Santi's non-canon story line. I do believe he has stayed true to the canon characterizations and mechanics, but I could just as easily accept it if he didn't, because Rowling's world could use tweaking and downright beating before it does make any decent amount of sense. Changing Rowling's canon mechanics would only serve to make Santi's story more believable, in my opinion anyway.

 

No, but that's probably why Rosier told Karkaroff to accept the age limit - it leaves the Durmstrang field relatively weak, appart from the four. What I'm wondering is if he really thought Calypso has a chance, or if he actually wanted Harry to be selected.

 

That is the most fallacious argument I have seen yet. What you're saying is that my argument doesn't make sense. Why, because I think the Goblet shouldn't judge morality? So what you're saying is that you think the Goblet should judge morality, and that's your explanation. But I disagree with it. So essentially, what we have here is two differing kinds of logic/sense, and each one proves the opposite. Your only advantage is that you're accepting what's already said, while I'm showing it doesn't make sense according to certain things seen in the Tournament.
As for Santi giving a thumbs up, I don't accept that as conclusive enough proof. Human nature says he'd support the the opinions which say the story makes sense. If he had a definite answer which he would be willing to give, I'd expect him to say so. Until he does, I view this matter as unclosed.

I'd be willing to accept a combined version of what Churchey and Celestine are saying, which is that finding a way through the Age Line is overall worth more than sneaking past it. But I have a problem with the idea that we're looking for champions. Champions shouldn't cheat - and yet three of them did, simply in the canon version we know of. And this is in addition to being told that there is a long history of cheating, so much that some consider it traditional. Truly - if the fastest way you could win a task was cheating (without getting caught), why would you not do it? Does anyone really think that cheating makes one less of a champion? Heck, the system is designed to award cheating without getting caught - there's no way to disqualify you if you do. Yet, there is a tradition of cheating - which implies that the cheating was known or discovered later, at the least.

 

And yet, as you notice, none of the champions cheat. Karkaroff and Maxime cheat to help their champions, but the champions themselves never do. Cedric helps Harry solve the egg, and Fleur argues "I should have gotten no points" when she fails to complete the second task.

So as far as canon goes, cheating is traditional, but none of the champions ever do it. Seems to imply that cheating is traditional on the part of those who support the champions, not the champions themselves.

 

The champions do not not cheat, it is their other qualities that allow them to be champions as opposed to competitors. Victor would make the better champion because of his willingness to do things he did not want to do, regardless on the possible impact it may have on his own career that he has spent his whole life working towards.

Harry could only get a bit humiliated if he entered and lost, and it would not damage his magic if his left arm got destroyed for one reason or another, so her would be able to live life with relatively few repercussions. Obviously enough, that's not the same for a professional quidditch player. Compare it to Usane Bolt loosing a leg. Victor's actions would be more suited to that of a champion.

There is no way that Harry can match that, so he needs to be brilliant in all other aspects the Goblet uses to choose the champion, which is why he needs to find a way around the age line, showing courage, resourcefulness and magical ability.

 

There is a way that Dumbledore could both not be lying and not telling the truth. Would that not satisfy both sides of the argument?

Suppose the Goblet receives the names and divides them into their respective schools. From each school, the Goblet selects a random name as an output. No one but the creator of this artifact knows that the Goblet selects random names.

If we accept that individuals have complex personalities, then among the names selected from the Goblet (again given that no one knows that the Goblet actually generates a random selection), there could be a massive number of combinations of qualities which would satisfy an individuals perception of how the device selects champions. Let's take a small number of individual traits at 10,000 properties. The result would be 1 trillion permutations for 3 champions and 10 quadrillion permutations for 4.

It is impossible to know exactly how the Goblet selects champions (if we accept the possibility that it selects randomly) because it would take longer than a trillion years for any individual to investigate.

In any case, it would take an equal amount of time to decide through logic on our own given that the only person who knows has said jack about it.

 

The idea that the Goblet selects a random purpose defeats the entire purpose of the TWT Champions being the best that their schools have to offer. And I don't think you're factoring magic into your calculations.

 

I'm not saying that's what the Goblet does. I'm saying that it is statistically impossible to know what qualities the Goblet seeks out unless we're told, which we haven't been.

 

Well, considering the first canon task tests daring/courage and the second seems to test intelligence (their ability to solve a clue) I'd say we've been given a clue as to what qualities the Goblet seeks out.

 

I don't really think asking Viktor to place his name in would really be considered cheating. It's simply the more cowardly path.