Ok, I put the first draft of chapter 14 in the work by author section.

http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=2095

The chapter just doesn't sit right with me, but I can't put my finger on why. I'm hoping somebody here will be able to point out what I'm missing.

-the Jack

 

I say make Harry the way you have built him. I thought he was still in character this whole chapter.

The part with Dumbledore saying
“Mr. Potter, I am your headmaster, and you will address me with respect!”
was a bit out of character because he's always composed. Example Karikaff sp? in GoF spit on his feet in front of the hut. I doubt he would ever make the request for respect like that. but thats just me.

If the snakes were harsh treatment, then so was the torture he gave Vernon. I think you kept Harry in character, especially with the sorting hat telling him that he is ruthless as well. Correlates to the last chapter.

I love the way Harry just dismisses Dumble whenever they are talking. He always ends confrontations in his own terms. In the books Dumble is always the one that ends the Q & A forum with telling Harry its time for him to go back to bed, although he say's that in a bit different dumblish way like "time is making fools of us yet again".

I think you landed another great chapter I didn't see anything that was seriously wrong, although, him using parseltounge is a bit open with his abilites. I was thinking you could of used hand signals or something with the snakes instead of the use of snake language just to ensure fear, I'm assuming.

 

I really liked this chapter. Harry responded to an attack with the same kind of vengeance one (from his background) would in the real world. It felt like he negated a lot of his secrecy, but at the same time sacrificed it for something worthy. Really don't know what's missing here, the chapter seems to be rather sound.

Provided you let the chapter stand as final, I can't wait to see what kind of havoc this will cause-- especially with Lucius and possibly Fudge.

 

Great chapter. I really like the way you write Harry. Though I have to agree with the others comments about Dumbledore's demands for respect. If anything I think Snape would have said it not Dumbledore.

 

Yeah, the most problematic part of this chapter that I can see is conversation with Dumbledore.

And it wasn't just the respect comment. Dumbledore just seemed too strict with Harry, demanding respect and obedience. He seemingly forgot that he only met Harry few days ago and that THIS Harry wasn't just another worshiping student in his school, afraid of his authority. Yes, Harry reminds him of it later in conversation, but I simply don't think that Dumbledore would have so spectaculary miscalculated his position and influence.

So, how do I think this conversation should go? Dumbledore should back up Harry more firmly and practically take his side against Snape, in an attempt to gain his trust. After yelling at Snape, he should MILDLY reprimind Harry for using too much force. As a response to this 'testing of water', Harry should just as mildly remind Dumbledore that he doesn't have as much authority as he's used to having over students. Their debate on merits of using force to solve one's problems should be more in the tone of a philosophic argument and not a shouting match, with both sides respectfully disagreeing with each other.

So, this way, the whole point of the convo comes out, without an argument that would only work against Dumbledore's interests and further undermine his already high-strung relationship with Harry.

Oh, and I'd really like to see Dumbledore's (and maybe even Snape's) POV while watching the pensive recording. I think it'd be interesting to see his observations on Slytherin house in general, Harry's power and his conduct in general. I can already see Dumbledore getting Tom Riddley flashbacks during the scene with snakes...

 

I'll not bother beating a dead horse with the Dumbledore scene, though I tend to agree with the criticism. My main thing is to comment that I would hope that Harry refuses to do the month's detentions that Dumbledore assigns him. He has already plainly stated that he wouldn't accept any punishments and to have him go back on his word would make him look weak. And crass as it may be, I was hoping to see Harry serve Snivellus some comeuppance as well. The ugly bastard deserves to suffer torture for his role in the ambush. Perhaps Harry could go public with Snape's blackmail or something.

 

I'll be the voice of dissent and say I didn't mind the Dumbledore scenes. I am sure in all his years at Hogwarts Albus has seen many things. However, nothing could prepare him for the Harry you have presented. No one has ever been forced to come to Hogwarts before. It's probably a little hard for him to imagine that someone wouldn't want to come there.

Then you go to the fact that Harry has zero respect for him. Even Dumbledore's enemies respect his power and political clout. Harry knows that Dumbledore has the power, but lacks the will to use it negating that.

Too many writers think Dumbledore is above anger. At the end of the fourth book when Dumbledore and crew burst in on Barty Crouch, you catch a glimpse of a man who was played for a fool and did not like it one bit. I believe Dumbledore can get angry. He is human after all.

Other than that, be careful in letting Harry get his way too much. Heros need to struggle a bit. I know he is powerful, but conjuring 4 snakes, engorging them and making them invisible should have been more taxing. Plus using all the advanced shields. I would recommend cutting the final version down to 1 or 2 snakes.

Onto other developments the chapter offered. I wonder how Lucius will take this. His duplicity in the diary was never revealed and he was able to get the board to sack Dumbledore once. This time his son and several others were attacked and Dumbledore let the attacker off with no punishment. True it could be countered by a pensieve investigation, but nonetheless it is worth exploring.

Finally, how does Harry handle Daphne. I will be interested to see that. She helped scheme against him, but backed out of the actual ambush probably to hedge her bets. Very Slytherin of her. I suspect she isn't all rubbish at curses as she proclaimed. How will he handle her duplicity?

Jim

 

Ah...
Very, very good, but i agree that the respect bit was a bit much. i don't think albus is above automatic calming charms in times of stress.

Other than that, be careful in letting Harry get his way too much. Heros need to struggle a bit. I know he is powerful, but conjuring 4 snakes, engorging them and making them invisible should have been more taxing. Plus using all the advanced shields. I would recommend cutting the final version down to 1 or 2 snakes. <== Ah, that, like the magical core fanon bit, is something i dislike. Why should it be taxing? Student do magic 8 hours a day continuously without getting that tired. Getting tired after a magical feat is specificaly fanon.

 

Well, I don't think he's above anger, but I do think he's above throwing temper tantrums and miscalculating his position and leverage after all those years in politics.

Besides, Dumbledore shouldn't get angry in a situation like this. Why would he? Because Harry broke a few school rules, somethig he did numerous times in canon? Because Malfoy would spend an afternoon in the hospital wing and have to change his underwear?

No I don't think he cared much about Harry breaking the school rules and having a scuffle with Malfoy. He simply doesn't think of Harry as of just another student, he never did. He thinks of Harry as of his potential weapon and he's trying to shape him into one.

I beleive that his primary emotion during that scene wasn't anger, but fear that Harry is turning dark. But I don't think that his reaction to that should be yelling and trying to supress him with his authority, like he would do to an ordinary student. Like I said, he should have tried to gain the boy's trust by taking his side, having a heart to heart talk and maybe giving him a few slow nudges towards the "light" (maybe forcing him to interact with Gryffindors could be Harry's 'punishment').

My point was simply that Dumbledore was treating Harry as just another student that had broken school rules, instead of his personal project that he's trying to shape up into the weapon of the light (for the greater good). I'm not saying that scene was bad (on the contrary), just that Dumbledore's conduct was damaging his own agenda.

Well, I don't think Harry handles Daphne at all. They had total of one conversation, right? There's no grounds for Harry to expect any sort of loyalty from her.

 

I actually don't see them practicing magic continously for 8 hours a day. I am guessing that they don't do magic at all in Muggle Studies, Divinitation, Astronomy, Potions (unless to vanish or clean up a mess), Care of Magical Creatures (except for defense). You get the idea. Even in the ones where they are, it's turning teapots into ravens not conjuring monsterous snakes. As for magic being taxing Voldemort conjured a shield to defend himself against Dumbledore in the DoM, but was unable to use any attacks. So while my assumptions are fannon, they have basis in cannon. The fact that the author has chosen to use power as a focal point allows this. (Harry's problems with Transfiguration where he compensates with raw power and that he learns to replace power with technique and form.) He also used exhaustion after the battle at the Chamber of Secrets, where he could only partially make himself invisible.

Hope that explains my postition better.

IP - Actually he should handle Daphne. He sees her every day. They are probably in most of each other's classes (although they may have different electives) Also he is the new force in Slytherin. She may try and ingratiate herself to him.


Jim

 

Hum... you are most likely right. of course i could say i don't think changing teapot into raven is any easier than conjuring cobras... and the author didn't right out said that it was the magic that exhausted harry, it could have been running around and fighting a big basilisk, and i could explain the demi invisibility by harry's mental concentration being lacking in this case. But you are most likely right, as this is fanon. Though i would like to know what jack think abou magical core and exhaustion, if it is learning to withstand more power in channeling and will, or an amoiunt of born power.

on the other hand, in the dom scene, voldemort did attack when he could. I think he just didn't have the time to. In my mind, dumbledore is very much the more experienced dueler and having the greater will, at least at that point, i don't think voldemort will stay dimnished for that long.

Oh, and nonjon said clearly what i was thinking about hermione and obliviation.

 

I just tried to post, but it was deleted. I'm pretty ticked off considering it was pretty large.

My point was that Albus should have been angry. Harry really crossed the line, and used unneccessary (sp?) force. Daphne acted against Harry, and can't be allowed to tink that she can oppose Harry with impugnity (Harry's logic).

And ALbus shouldn't bend entirely to Harry's will. Harry doesn't know WHY or how desperately Albus wants Harry at Hogwarts. But Albus KNOWS Harry wants to be at Hogwarts too. Albus should know about the Transfiguration, he KNOWS Harry wants to learn about wards, and Harry DEFINITELY wants to be there to protect Row (and learn the Patronus Charm). I would be surprised if Albus wasn't aware of what Harry does in EVERY class and is getting reports from his teachers. He's got leverage too, and it would be foolish of him not to use it.

 

I disagree completely. It's total reverse of that IMO.

Two chapters ago, Harry realized that Albus has some sort of agenda for him and that he's way too eager to see him at Hogwarts. Harry knows that Dumbledore had gone to great lengths to get him to Hogwarts (several kidnapping attempts, letters etc...) and that he's not likely to just let him go.

On the other hand, Albus beleives that the only reason Harry even came to Hogwarts was because of Snape's blackmail. Now that Harry had secured guardianship for Row, as far as Albus knows, the only reason that Harry stays at Hogwarts is his good will. Harry already had training before Hogwarts, already has a flat and knows he's financially secure; Dumbledore can't count on him being desperate for a magical education.

Once Snape gets control over Row, the tables will partially turn. But at this point, Albus has no leverage over Harry whatsoever, while Harry has an upper hand over everyone in magical world.

 

once he gets guardianship over row? I thought he wanted raw to be with a pureblood family (not him, just another family). He knows he doesn't want to be responsible for a kid. He does this purely for spite, not for guardianship over row. So harry will have a reason to get very angry, but not to be manipulated. It wouldn't shock me if he learned the fidelius charm (he already knows of it) and used it to protect row, giving her tutorship in america, or something.

 

Hmm, I think it seemed like Harry was way too angry with everything and everyone, but then, he *is* justified. Plus, you had Jack tell him to lighten up, so in the end, the whole angryfest works out fine.

A couple of things that stood out to me:
- When Harry told Dumbledore about Malfoy's plan, he came across as too hostile too soon. Not very Slytherin, that. I believe it would be smoother if you had something like:
“Malfoy is going to attack me,” Harry said bluntly. “I’m almost certain of it. I embarrassed him on the train and he’s going to try to get revenge."
Then Dumbledore says one of those idiotic platitudes, and _then_ Harry says "If he does, and you don’t do anything to stop it, I guarantee that you won’t like the results.” You can make this last sentence even stronger and more hostile now.

- You said "Snape could only nod, wide-eyed."
Snape, wide-eyed? The man's a bastard but other than rage, he hides emotions well. I think that in this scene he's more likely to be poker-faced (or, maybe widen his eyes but then change to a blank expression really quickly).

That's all that seemed a bit off to me, but I think they are minor issues. Overall the chapter was awesome! I loved the snake scene.

General question: Does conjuration create something out of thin air, or is it some form of summoning? The latter feels wrong, but if it's the former, then whatever is conjured shouldn't be able to last long, otherwise what's stopping people from living on conjured food? But then, if we accept that conjured food does not give you any energy, what about the poison of conjured snakes. Does it really poison you? Do you need an anditote, or does the poison vanish from your body without effect after a while?

Vanna

 

Don't know if you weer aking for the author's opinion, but here's mine

I'd say that conjuration is a form of transfiguration in that you change the air particles into what you want, whehter animate or not (it's magic). i don't know about the conjured items only lasting for a short period of time but i think that the point is moot. For instance, if a conjured knife strikes one in the heart, and the person died, even if the knife turned back into air, hte person would still be dead.

The only point that could be raised from the above assumption IMO is whether Malfoy and co would die if the venom disappeared before the 48hrs were up. Guess only jack could answer that.

On another note; Didn't see anything in the draft that could be improved upon that hasn't already be mentioned, but i thought it was alright. Keep up the good work Jack.#

PS. Been promoted to a squib. Yay 4 me.

 

That was quite good. Could have been a little bit more Slytherin about it, but its fine.

 

Conjured tea can be drunk, as Dumbledore proves in HBP.

 

Ah, well, HPB has become a suppressed memory for me
But you are right, I now remember McGonaggal conjuring sandwiches in CoS. Ok, so conjured food is actually filling, so we can conclude the poison is also real and does require an antidote.