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Complete Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality by Less Wrong - T

Discussion in 'Almost Recommended' started by headbanger22, Mar 9, 2010.

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  1. Silens Cursor

    Silens Cursor The Silencer DLP Supporter

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    I know DLP's not my personal army, and with all due respect, I expected this response. And yeah, DLP has taken worse criticism in the past, but there are two differentiating factors here - content and audience.

    1. Critique DLP has typically gotten before has usually been true (and most members can't deny that). We're harsh, we're brutal, we're utterly unforgiving, and we pounce with enough viciousness to get our points across. But calling us unintelligent or our stories unworthy of attention strikes me, as an author, as unbelievably arrogant. So I got angry, and to some degree justifiably so.

    2. This author has received, as of last count, over 5,000 reviews in about four months. He has claimed support from public figures, and he has mentioned us CONSISTENTLY in his author's notes, often with a disparaging manner. Anyone who reads his notes or comments is automatically going to believe something about this site that isn't true, and that's not fair to the admins, mods, and other members who have invested a lot of time, money, and effort making this place as it is. I feel that's a just reason to get angry, in my opinion, because we deserve better.

    In all due honesty, I'm trying not to take his smug, condescending attitude personally, but there's a certain degree of justifiable anger that I feel when people refuse an offer for help because 'you're not smart enough for me'. I'd love to see him taken down a few notches, right now - 'cause of all the people I know, he's certainly one for it.

    I was hoping so, yeah, but let's be honest - collective apathy here is understandable. I was honestly hoping more people would get stirred up about it, but maybe that's just me.

    We'll see what happens.
     
  2. vlad

    vlad Banned ~ Prestige ~

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    Silens, as much as I hate to say this because it sounds like I'm throwing you under the bus, you're in that unfortunate position where you're wrong for all the right reasons.

    I suppose in the long run, we could end up losing membership as some poor newbie comes across this and decides that DLP is 'a cesspit'. But frankly, I'm really not sure we want people so easily persuaded by the cult anyway - more than anything else, DLP is made up of people with their own strong opinions. We've always had a reputation as the fanfiction boogieman, and one more guy with a thousand idiot followers - while infuriating - isn't exactly new.

    I'm comfortable with who we are, both as a collection of people who enjoy shooting the shit about Harry Potter, and the cross-section of people we are in real life. While it makes my skin crawl on one level to be so thoroughly dismissed by a pompous douchebag whom I've never met (yeah, color me hypocritical...), as has been said, the central point is this:

    This guy's irrelevant.

    His story sucks, his message is as eloquent as a punch to the face, and his supporters are near to a man so utterly single-minded in their devotion that rational (lol!) argument is impossible. It might feel like he's basking in stolen glory now, but he'll come and go.

    And no matter what, he'll never come close to reaching the fame and time-honored lulz that is My Immortal. Ha!
     
  3. Giovanni

    Giovanni God of Scotch

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    What I love is how he jacks off all over Joe's fic in his Author page and then bashes this board in the next breath for recognizing quality (Joe) over vapid stupidity (himself.)

    Some people just can't handle criticism well.
     
  4. Vir

    Vir Centauri Ambassador ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I don't even know what to say.

    Part of me wants to see DLP prove the guy wrong. To show him that we're not inferior to him or to anyone. On the other hand, I realize that the guy is pretty much irrelevant. His public supporters are people I've never heard of in my life.

    I've read MoR and I find his arcane-academic speak to be suspect. The only ones, in my experience, who use that kind of language are those who are seeking to inflate their own sense of intelligence. I've never once heard a professor speak that way, even in private or with a select group of talented students. It just don't occur in the real-world. Outside of first years trying to sound all smart.
     
  5. silverlasso

    silverlasso Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    Of course, from his perspective, the only accurate analyses are those filled with glowing praise.

    I still maintain that Chapter 7 of this fic was great. However, after that, it went downhill. He has an inflated sense of self-worth and uses this fic to lecture his readers. It would be infinitely better if he toned down on this lecturing and imparted his "lessons" as part of an actual story. To be completely honest, I could stand all of the other faults that Silens mentioned if I weren't being spoken down to. In fact, I could probably stand being spoken down to if he had watertight logic. But he doesn't; his rationalizations and fixes to canon don't make as much sense as he seems to think they do.

    Whatever. I don't really care about him that much; sure, I was annoyed that even reddit of all places had a circlejerk over him, but in the long run, he's not worth our energy.
     
  6. Shezza

    Shezza Renegade 4 Life DLP Supporter

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    I is named! I is special and...what's that word...oh, yes, intelligent too!

    Hmm. I didn't touch this story with a ten-foot pole because I knew exactly how it would turn up. It would become an avenue where the author dumps on what we know as Harry Potter canon and I just knew that there would be a tone of smugness about the whole thing. It's been done before, although those stories don't seem to be as popular as this one seems to be.

    What really drives me away from this story is that it's just doesn't seem fun. I'll admit that I haven't read it word for word but I skimmed over it as I was writing this and nothing to me stands out that was put there to entertain as it was to preach to us- and that, frankly, pisses me off. Narratives should be there to entertain us, to immerse us in a world with a set of characters and events that make us, in the best possible way, forget who we are for a moment in favour of becoming that which we are reading. You can have a story so deep and full of metaphors and analogies and references to real-world events and it can be so deep and meaningful that it'll change your life- and I'll still bloody well hate it if I can't immerse myself in it and enjoy it. Maybe that's just me but that's how I like my stories. I read to entertain myself. I'm not saying that I hate all non-fiction work either, because I'm always on CNET and Whirlpool and other forums reading about the latest tech and I'm a huge fan on documentaries involving astronomy and the like. I do that for my own intellectual curiosity.

    I read fanfiction for my own sense of enjoyment.

    This story is not enjoyable.

    As for the author, well, I'll spend my 1000th post telling him that I honestly don't give a damn what he thinks of us. He can claim that he's more intelligent and learned that all of DLP, and on a lot of cases- mine included- he'd be right. I still don't care. Because, as people, we all make judgements on each other and so far, from what I've read in here and in the story, I believe that it takes a special type of arrogance to write a story like that and this author has that type of arrogance in spades.

    That would make him, as we say in the land down under, a pretentious fucktard. You probably say it in a lot of other places too.

    tl;dr: Fuck you, author of MoR that I never even bothered to remember your name. Your story sucks and I don't give a shit what you think of me for saying it.
     
  7. Catamount

    Catamount Squib

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    If we were smart, instead of writing posts here complaining about his fic, we'd write up some MOR "fan" fiction based on reading the first 10 to 20 chapters of his fic (and using TVtropes to figure out what happens in the later chapters), showing all the flaws and problems with his universe.
     
  8. White Rabbit

    White Rabbit Hippity Hoppity DLP Supporter

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    I'd rather rub my dick in the festering wounds of a leprous woman's vagoo; than waste my time explaining in detail how awful the fic is to a person that merely thinks us neanderthals could dare give criticism to his masterworks in the high art form of fanfiction.

    /thread
     
  9. Andro

    Andro Master of Death DLP Supporter

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    Silens, you are in the first, but you've lost sight of the fact that they have been a hundred sensation fics that net thousands of reviews. Less Wrong met the formula perfectly, unusual concept and competent writing. Some of their writers have recognized them for sensations, others preferred to let it go to their heads and call them successes.

    To your concern that he will influence people's opinions of DLP negatively: first of all, so what if he does? When have we ever cared? As a community I feel we write for each other, and the readerships that follow us outside of DLP. Whenever I manage to write something, I don't think of how the anonymous folks at FFNet will respond to it (aside from a few regulars <3). Not important. I anticipate the reactions of the writers I respect and consider my role models.

    Secondly, the chances that his readers will run across the works of Perspicacity, Nonjon, Jbern, Shezza, Pureb99, Amerision, Nuhuh, Enembee, Swimdraconian, yourself and other talented writers associated with DLP are staggeringly high, if they continue reading HP fanfiction.

    Then the reader takes ten minutes of clicking around before hitting one of these guys, realizes that this fellow summarily dismissed them all, and Less Wrong looks More Wrong. These big names comprise a significant portion of the entire roster at DLP, and DLP is ruthlessly efficient at disavowing itself of terrible writers.

    So the very act of calling DLP a cesspit on the Internet is discrediting.

    When you compare the guy with the apply-philosophy-science-to-Harry-Potter gimmick to authors at DLP that the entire fandom knows, I pity Less Wrong because his writing isn't in that league.

    So let him enjoy his Z-list celebrity endorsements and his very own gilded page on TvTropes. He is not of sufficiently high stature to be dismissing anyone. The fic's popularity might even benefit the fandom and encourage writers who are good at the craft. We don't need to pop his bubble.

    You could try extracting a real response to your critiques Silens, but I'm sure he'll be curiously silent, or keep dancing.

    I'll be waiting for Sarah Palin to endorse this fic.

    Edit: Lol at everyone at DLP who liked his fic, and are here in enough force to equalize the rating at three stars, being included in his blanket dismissal of DLP.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  10. Innomine

    Innomine Dark Lord ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Ya'll are getting way too uptight about this shit.

    I gave up by chapter 26 or so. Isn't it easier to just not care?
     
  11. Vir

    Vir Centauri Ambassador ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Sometimes we much choose between what is right and what is easy.
     
  12. Ayreon

    Ayreon Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    To be fair: the average quality of stories in the DLP library is quite low (as opposed to, for instance, the average quality of stories from DLP regulars.)
    Now I don't have the time to go through all the old stories in the library and see if they're still any good, but from an outside perspective it looks odd. DLP says ~ we have high standards, but if you look at the worst stories in the library to see what it takes at minimum to get into it, then you'll be confused, because by that standard 1/3rd of FF.net should be in it.
    (Maybe we should add a disclaimer at the top: "BEWARE, most stories added before 2008 are probably shit.")

    Also: It would be more of a misrepresentation of DLP, if the majority of FF.net members had a positive opinion of it. DLP members worked long and hard to be seen as dicks by the rest of the fandom. :p

    IIRC the author has added one piece of good advice now, something like ~"If you don't like the Fic by chapter 10, drop it." Don't hope it will get better, if you don't enjoy it, drop it.

    @Silens
    Really? On IRC you were bragging about hopefully having baited the author to come to DLP for advice and you were looking forward to all the members bashing him and his stories and now you act offended and claim you were just hoping to offer civil, objective advice?
    This looks like becoming the fandom-version of WoW-drama and I was hoping I got away from that.
     
  13. LessWrong

    LessWrong Temporarily Banhammered

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    Right, so just to make it clear, that was a private reply to a private message which the world never got to see until Silens Cursor posted it here. The whole world now knows that I think DLP is a cesspit... thanks to one Silens Cursor.

    See, ordinarily people are supposed to condemn that sort of thing when it happens. Even if you don't like the target's fanfiction. It goes against netiquette. And the fact that you guys ain't condemning it really, really, REALLY does not reflect well on the Dark Lord Potter forum.

    It is exactly the sort of behavior that justifies the phrase "Internet cesspit" that I used in private. And just as you don't care about violations of netiquette so long as you get the punch in, I don't get the impression that you care whether your critiques are true or false. Or respect the work enough to pay any close attention, which is why other forums have done far more accurate analyses of the hidden information in Methods. And if I were looking for organized criticism, I would most certainly bring my work to Viridian or SpaceBattles or some other forum that had shown the ability to do successful analyses, not here.

    I'll give you fair warning now that I might later publicly say something along the lines of "If you're an author whose work has been trashed by the DLP, don't worry about them, they're just another Internet cesspit. For proof, look at this thread where someone posts a courteous private response from me without permission, and no one else condemns this violation of universal netiquette."

    You are, of course, free to try to make things look prettier for DLP by saying the sort of things you should've said originally.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  14. Dark Syaoran

    Dark Syaoran No. 4 Admin

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    I didn't know who you were until today. Also, I dislike 4chan.

    Edit: I knew about this story, however. Just never realised it was such a big deal.

    Edit 2: Oh yeah. Let's get back on topic, anyway. This thread is about a story. Review the story, people.
     
  15. Inquisition

    Inquisition Canadian Ambassador to Japan DLP Supporter

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    Oh, no! Sensitive information has been leaked! Alert the Pentagon!

    Okay. Silens, you're a bad boy. Now let's move on.

    Oh, by the way. Ordinary people are also supposed to not use made up words like "ain't". It goes against intelligence. And the fact that you're not condemning it really, really, REALLY does not reflect well on your skills with the English language.

    We hated you for what (personally, I don't know or care who you are), Silens spread some 'omgsekritmsg' thing around, and now your feelings are hurt. So you're going to criticise the forum as a whole for not being against someone who hurt your feelings. Are you a politician?

    And for the record, 4chan is a rather popular site, despite its content. What does that say about 4chan?

    And pay no attention to what I said in that courteous private response from me saying that same Internet cesspit is in fact, an Internet cesspit.

    We don't suck up to people very well here either. Unless they're self-absorbed people in fan fiction. Like jbern. Actually, you might have a chance. Keep those hopes up, kiddo.
     
  16. Antivash

    Antivash Until we meet again... DLP Supporter Retired Staff

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    Mmm. I can't help but want to punch you in the dick, dude. If you're gonna cry foul over someone outting you for talking shit you should have said openly, go eat a dick...

    What should have been said originally is that the story is simply the ramblings of an arrogant cockmongler who seems utterly unable to grasp the fact that not everyone will like the tripe they write simply because they have some sort of idea. That anyone who has a negative comment is just a fucking idiot.

    Its a story, you narcissistic little cunt. Get over yourself. Less has been said about your dime a dozen story than your fucking attitude.

    tl;dr: Eat a dick and die.
     
  17. Tehan

    Tehan Avatar of Khorne DLP Supporter

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    How do you justify to yourself whining about breaches of netiquette in the same breath as breaking out some blatant-as-fuck blackmail?
     
  18. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Silens :?

    So what, he does not want to be here? I could have told you that, even before your PM -- it takes a certain kind of character to be here, and he ain't got it. He's arrogant, but so am I -- yeah, but he's missing the mindset to still allow for opinions other than his own. I can't even blame him, there -- the whole damn story is an opinion. So obviously he would want to change nothing, and thus, he would not want to be here.

    And I don't want him here either.

    As for his comments, I really really really don't care what he or other people think about DLP. If he dislikes us it's fine; it prevents him from being here and potentially makes for amusing A/N's. If other people believe him, the same goes for them. Everyone who owns this thing called personality enough so that they are able to form an own opinion will check out what he talks about, and maybe come to a different assertion (Vlad covered that point before me).


    And since you pointed out the 5k reviews, I can't help but feel pointing out the 10k reviews My Immortal got. I'm a review whore too, but I'm not going to get angry because of his "popularity". It's a different target audience -- or at least, I'd hope it is. I would not want my stuff to belong to the same category as his story.

    TL;DR: I > him and :banana:


    Edit: Oh fuck me, now you did it -_-

    Well, shit hitting the fan in -9 ... -10
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  19. Inquisition

    Inquisition Canadian Ambassador to Japan DLP Supporter

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    @LessWrong: After reading this violation of unalienable internet rights, I'd like to note (in a separate post, because that way my post count goes up and I'm not hindered with a stupid title like 'Minister of Magic') that nobody really cared about what Silens had to say until you showed up here and whined about how your anus was violated by this invasion of privacy, and how we're all terrible people.

    You do care! It brings tears to my eyes.
     
  20. Zennith

    Zennith Pebble Wrestler ~ Prestige ~

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    Courteous? COURTEOUS?

    Silens' message to you was courteous and constructive with the intent to help you better your story. Your responsive was dismissive and demeaning towards someone who has proven to be a better author than you. And now you're proving yourself to also be a whiny little bitch.

    Seriously. Get over yourself and get the fuck out.
     
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