I've had the idea in my head for a kind of "DH revisit" fic for ages. I haven't actually worked on it, because I'm pretty sure I'd get lynched for starting Yet Another Thing, but that's not the point.

I think the big failure here was the "let's just stand around in the woods for three months while nothing happens, and wait for something to happen" part. Harry Potter is a series of mystery and adventure. So where's the mystery and adventure? You don't have to be all exotic and high fantasy about it (though I am, as often and as frequently as I can get away with it). Simple globe-trotting by itself is enough. All it takes is Dumbleportrait teaching them how to jailbreak a Portkey, and suddenly the entire planet becomes one big Horcrux Hunt sandbox. Why limit this to boring English forests and the Scottish Highlands? Where's the Horcrux stashed in a pyramid guarded by traps, actual-for-real curses, and a mummy sorcerer and his undead minions so we'd better go find Bill? Or the one that's a priceless piece of Muggle art or history, which the trio then have to steal, because it's not like they're going to just hand over the French Crown Jewels or whatever if you ask.

You don't even have to involve Avalon or the sacred river Aelph if you don't want to. That's High Adventure, and just plain old Regular Adventure would have been fine.

tl;dr, I was expecting adventure in Deathly Hallows, and instead I got Ron bitching in the woods. That's kind of a letdown. And I know Voldemort is a few bubbles short of a Nargle, but that doesn't excuse going to the trouble of dividing up your soul to gain functional immortality, and then hiding them all on the same island. Especially not when teleportation is a thing. Throw one in the sea ("we must befriend the merpeople!"), imbed one in the belly of a Manticore in Greece, submit one to the Louvre as modern art. Do something with them.

I would totally hide one on Isla Sorna, is all I'm saying.

 

Relevant as an elephant:



And Raine, do it. We'll forgive you for past transgressions if you just stick with this one. You know, unlike everything else you've ever done. Except living. See, you can do one thing, you can do another! Go go.

 

One problem with Deathly Hallows was that the Harry Potter series and Hogwarts are so closely interlinked that running around outside of Hogwarts in a tent and never seeing it was a shitty, shitty idea.

Having the horcruxes be scattered around the world is nice in theory but it still has the same problem that Harry would never see Hogwarts.

If Harry was living in a tent but kept sneaking in and out of Hogwarts to search the library and hear from Neville et al what Snape "accidentally" happened to let slip extremely loudly near where they were eavesdropping then it would show how bad Hogwarts is getting to make the quest mean more, it would develop the Harry/Ginny relationship beyond a quick fling, it would be a call-back to all the times they've been sneaking around Hogwarts under the Invisibility Cloak, and it would make it feel more Harry-Potter-esque.

Hogwarts still has plenty to play around with. There's still the catacombs under Hogwarts where Tom Riddle experimented on other student's familiars to create unholy abominations and tried other rituals of immortality, the L-space like Forbidden Forest where if you travel deep enough it turns to jungle or rainforest or snow covered firs and where Tom hid his heart in an Oak tree in the middle, there's still the battlements where after finding Dr. Frankenstein's notes Tom Riddle played with lightning and corpses polyjuiced into himself...

 

What? Since when has Albus Potter had two first names? He has one first name (Albus), one middle name (Severus) and one last name (Potter). It's not like his middle name is even used much. He's called Al and Albus in the epilogue. The only time his middle name is used is when Harry is making a point about Slytherins not being evil. It's no different than Harry's 'James' or Ron's 'Bilius'. Hell, it's not like Latin cognomina are even uncommon as far as Wizarding names go, which both Albus and Severus are. Quite a few few seem to have either real Latin names or fake-Latin ones. Severus is even one of the better known one. There were three Roman Emperors with the name.

 

Just because Methods failed at something doesn't mean we must all then not do that thing ourselves. Lionheart failed a writing, but that doesn't mean we should all stop doing that.

 

To be honest, I think the Horcrux quest itself is a bit of a problem for the series; logical or not, there's no getting past the fact that it basically turns the fight against Voldemort into a fucking scavenger hunt. More than that, it makes it that much easier for Harry and his friends to get lost in the moment and just plain ignore the fact that no matter how many soul jars they smash, there's still a Dark Lord waiting at the end for them.

Everyone at DLP loves to complain about how Harry's failure to train himself to face Voldemort after learning the prophecy in OOTP, but to fixate on training misses the larger point that Harry really doesn't think about Voldemort too much, even (or perhaps especially) after he comes out into the open in HBP. The problem with the Horcruxes is that they provide an excuse to continue this downright suicidal negligence: "Sorry, but until I'm done with my Founder's memorabilia scavenger hunt, I refuse to give a shit about the Evil Overlord who's overrun my country, even though neither I nor anyone else has any idea what to do about him!" I'm not saying that the Horcruxes were a bad idea in and of themselves, but their existence exacerbated the problem of Harry's self-absorption, which is itself one of the major flaws of the series IMO, since it inhibits worldbuilding and the development of some of the lesser characters.

 

Again, I have no problem with the fight being a scavenger hunt, because I don't think there was ever a chance of Harry being able to defeat Voldemort in a straight-fight. That was literally never going to happen. It never could have happened. There's a reason most powerful!Harry stories start with "and then a bullshit powerup happened." It's because without bullshit powerups or shonen-like action reflexes, a magical duel between Harry and Voldemort will end with Voldemort transfiguring Harry into an egg and then making an omelet.

Remember, Dumbledore was so powerful he was able to casually disarm and incapacitate an entire room of Aurors and Ministry personnel with a single swing of his wand, and even he could only duel on even grounds with Voldemort. To suggest that Harry could face Voldemort in a legitimate fight or duel is to suggest that Harry is as skilled and as powerful as Dumbledore, if not moreso. And I'm sorry, but that was never a thing that was in the cards.

There's a reason the final fight in the books was a convoluted sequence of coincidence and dumb luck that put the one wand in the planet that cannot be used against it's owner in the hands of Voldemort, and made Harry the owner of it at that specific point in time. It's because that's the only way Voldemort could have died in a duel. Literally, it was elaborate suicide.

Personally, I would have been just fine if Voldemort just went out like Sauron when the One Ring was unmade when his final Horcrux was destroyed.

 

That's all well and good, the problem is that Harry doesn't seem to care about - or even register - the hopelessness of the task. Look at his attitude when he's talking with Dumbledore at the Burrow in HBP. He casually talks about taking Voldemort and as many Death Eaters as he can get away with down with him, as if that's the minimum someone would expect from him. There's confidence, and there's just plain disregarding reality, and considering that HBP Harry can just barely handle Malfoy, you just can't take his claims seriously. As far as he's concerned, Voldemort should be this vast, seemingly omnipotent force of nature that lurks around every corner and can literally appear out of nowhere, killing you dead without warning. Instead, he's, well, out to lunch. Really, the only times Harry seems to even think about Voldemort during most of DH are when they're competing for the Elder Wand. For him, the Dark Lord is just a rival treasure hunter or something. Hell, even Ron suggests going for Dumbledore's tomb at the last minute even though Voldemort was right there already. That's not how one treats a dire threat, that's , well, I could go on, but I think you get the point. Harry and his friends don't take Voldemort seriously, why should I?

 

If Harry had accepted reality instead of kicking it to the curb, Ginny would have died in the Chamber of Secrets, Sirius and Buckbeak would have both died in PoA, and Harry himself would have died at the end of GoF.

 

I have some serious issues with the idea that Voldemort was the end all be all biggest baddest most powerful motherfucker of all time. Sure he was good, but not that good. In the fight between Voldemort and Dumbledore Dumbledore is positively toying with him, and even states "merely taking your life would not satisfy me". That's not something someone who's only just good enough would say, especially as Dumbledore doesn't feel like the guy who's into taunting and bragging. It's stated that Voldemort fears Dumbledore; the only reason Dumbledore doesn't completely wipe the floor with Voldemort is that for some reason he doesn't want to. Maybe Dumbledore knows he is so superior that any full on fight would equal cold blooded murder and fracture Dumbledore's soul?

We know that Voldemort tends to rely on AK on fights, which is not really all that impressive. We know that Voldemort was "thrice defied" by at least two young couples (what are the odds that the only people who defied him had a baby on the same day?), which doesn't make it sound like he was someone who could just "transfigure Harry into an egg". We know that despite all his brilliance Voldemort made awful lot of stupid mistakes that eventually cost him the war (although he was up against the divine power of an author, so the odds were never very good for him).

I would say most of Voldemort's reputation is smoke and mirrors. He is extremely good at theatrics (writing threats on walls with blood, anyone? Snake and skull motifs in the sky?), and can manipulate people and inspire fear like nobody's business. Of course the odds of Harry managing to "train" hard enough to beat him in a fair fight before turning eighteen are still slim to zero, but that doesn't mean he is unbeatable.

 

The problem is that Dumbledore can't kill Voldemort, as simple as that. He probably could, since he's quite a bit older than Voldemort, who also wasted 13 years as a spirit, and has the elder wand to supplement his many years of experience. But there's both the Horcruxes and the Prophecy which prevents his death.

Voldemort was just one man in one country, he never reached the status of being a worldwide threat. Voldemort is overconfidant, like most powerful people (Dumbledore included), but his fear of Dumbledore stretches back to his youth when he was afraid he would be caught.

"Defy" can be defined very loosely in the context, such as the phrase 'defeated' doesn't mean to 'kill'.

Skill and power don't have to be one's strong point. The Ministry was taken with next to no spells cast. Open warfare just doesn't exist in the magical world, whether it's fear of exposing themselves to the Muggles and fearing constant hounding for miracles or being nuked out of fear of the unknown. The biggest battle we know of resulted in a total of ~50 deaths. Voldemort uses the Killing Curse because it's a simple, easy way to kill someone, and more than that, it's as much a potent symbol of fear as is it's power to kill.

I'm not really sure what you would classify as Voldemort's mistakes. Him being a bit shortsighted and just focusing on killing Dumbledore to make his takeover easier, and tying up the lose end that is Harry? Or maybe him being prideful and not hiding his horcruxes at the bottom of the Aleutian Trench or piggybacking on the lunar lander? He relied on the obscurity of the magic, and in his sense of selfworth in his protections, and taking too much stock in being the heir of Slytherin. These things are really only stuff you'd think about in retrospect I think, since my thoughts when reading the books are not Voldemort being weak, even on rereads. Every character has flaws, Dark Lords included, and that is part of their defining characteristics, otherwise it would be gary!stu indestructible Dark Lords, and being able to kill him would be even more of an incredulous thing than it already was, but at least the story was all pulled together decent with various overarching plots connected (whether or not it was preplanned is a different discussion).

 

Can't kill Voldemort because of the Horcruxes? Sure. Can't kill Voldemort because of the Prophecy?

You must be confusing this for a setting where prophecies actually mean things. The only reason the prophecy matters at all is because Voldemort believes it to be true. Dumbledore said as much himself.

Try to keep in mind that, ultimately, Voldemort was not killed by Harry. He killed himself by trying to use the Elder Wand against it's rightful owner. Voldemort was killed by either himself or an inanimate object, depending on your interpretation. "Harry" had nothing to do with Voldemort's death, beyond helping to make it possible by destroying Horcruxes.

I'm actually looking to find that rant now, because Dumbledore has a rant about it. I think it's in HBP.

---------- Post automerged Oct 9th, 2012 at 03:08 AM ---------- Previous post was Oct 8th, 2012 at 10:21 PM ----------

I can't find it. As a result of that, I will let that point drop. I'm not agreeing with it, but I'm not going to argue against it if I can't find the sauce. I will, however, keep looking.

In the way Grindelwald was? No. Voldemort did not create a World War, nor was he behind/the alter-ego of someone like Hitler.

However, the Magical World is a lot smaller than the mundane one, and insofar as that goes, yes, I would call him a global threat. He threatened the entire magical world. Individuals like Karkaroff prevent you from saying Voldemort was contained entirely within the confines of the United Kingdom. He was, at the very least, a threat to the magical communities present in both the UK and continental Europe.

 

You can listen to Taure if you want.

Personally, I'll stick with Dumbledore.


Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 23, page 508.

Harry sat in thought for a moment, then asked, "So if all of his Horcruxes are destroyed, Voldemort could be killed?"

"Yes, I think so," said Dumbledore. "Without his Horcruxes, Voldemort will be a mortal man with a maimed and diminished soul. Never forget, though, that while his soul may be damaged beyond repair, his brain and his magical powers remain intact. It will take uncommon skill and power to kill a wizard like Voldemort, even without his Horcruxes."

"But I haven't got uncommon skill and power," said Harry, before he could stop himself.

"Yes, you have," said Dumbledore firmly. "You have a power that Voldemort never had. You can-"

"I know!" said Harry impatiently. "I can love!" It was only with difficulty that he stopped himself adding, "Big deal!"

"Yes, Harry, you can love," said Dumbledore, who looked as though he knew perfectly well what Harry had just refrained from saying. "Which, given everything that has happened to you, is a great and remarkable thing. You are still too young to understand how unusual you are, Harry."

"So, when the prophecy says that I'll have 'power the Dark Lord knows not,' It just means - love?" asked Harry, feeling a little let down.

"Yes - just love," said Dumbledore "But Harry, never forget that what the prophecy says is only significant because Voldemort made it so. I told you this at the end of last year. Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him - and in doing so, he made you the person who would be most dangerous to him!"

"But it comes to the same-"

"No, it doesn't!" said Dumbledore, sounding impatient now. Pointing at Harry with his black, withered hand, he said "You are setting too much store by the prophecy!"

"But," spluttered Harry, "but you said the prophecy means-"

"If Voldemort had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled? Would it have meant anything? Of course not! Do you think every prophecy in the Hall of Prophecy has been fulfilled?"

"But," said Harry, bewildered, "but last year, you said one of us would have to kill the other-"

"Harry, Harry, only because Voldemort made a grave error, and acted on Professor Trelawney's words! If Voldemort had never murdered your father, would he have imparted in you a furious desire for revenge? Of course not! If he had not forced your mother to die for you, would he have given you a magical protection he could not penetrate? Of course not, Harry! Don't you see? Voldemort himself created his own worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do! Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realize that, one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one who rises against them and strikes back! Voldemort is no different! Always he was on the lookout for the one who would challenge him. He heard the prophecy and he leapt into action, with the result that he not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him uniquely deadly weapons!"

"But-"

"It is essential that you understand this!" said Dumbledore, standing up and striding about the room, his glittering robes swooshing in his wake; Harry had never seen him so agitated. "By attempting to kill you, Voldemort himself singled out the remarkable person who sits here in front of me, and gave him the tools for the job! It is Voldemort's fault that you were able to see into his thoughts, his ambitions, that you even understand the snakelike language in which he gives orders, and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world (which, incidentally, is a gift any Death Eater would kill to have), you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts, never, even for a second, shown the slightest desire to become one of Voldemort's followers!"

"Of course I haven't!" said Harry indignantly. "He killed my mum and dad!"

"You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!" said Dumbledore loudly. "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror? Voldemort should have known then what he was dealing with, but he did not!

"But he knows it now. You have flitted into Lord Voldemort's mind without damage to yourself, but he cannot possess you without enduring mortal agony, as he discovered in the Ministry. I do not think he understand why, Harry, but then, he was in such a hurry to mutilate his own soul, he never paused to understand the incomparable power of a soul that is untarnished and whole."

"But, sir," said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, "it all comes to the same thing, doesn't it? I've got to try and kill him, or-"

"Got to?" said Dumbledore. "Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, that you had never heard that prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!"

Harry watched Dumbledore striding up and down in front of him, and thought. He thought of his mother, his father, and Sirius. He thought of Cedric Diggory. He thought of all the terrible deeds he knew Lord Voldemort had done. A flame seemed to leap inside his chest, searing his throat.

"I'd want him finished," said Harry quietly. "And I'd want to do it."

"Of course you would!" cried Dumbledore. "You see, the prophecy does not mean you have to do anything! But the prophecy caused Lord Voldemort to mark you as his equal... In other words, you are free to choose your way, quite free to turn your back on the prophecy! But Voldemort continues to set store by the prophecy! He will continue to hunt you... which makes it certain, really, that-"

"That one of us is going to end up killing the other," said Harry. "Yes."

But he understood at last what Dumbledore had been trying to tell him. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Some people, perhaps, would say that there was little to choose between the two ways, but Dumbledore knew - and so do I, thought Harry, with a rush of fierce pride, and so did my parents - that there was all the difference in the world.

-=-=-=-

So no. The Prophecy is meaningless. There is no destiny that forces Harry and Voldemort to fight. There is no guiding hand of fate that decrees a final confrontation. The Prophecy only has as much stock as you put in it.

Voldemort believed the Prophecy. And in doing so, he made his mistake. In attempting to stymie the Prophecy by killing the one foretold to one day bring about his downfall, he created the circumstances that allowed Harry to be given the protection of a Sacrifice. This destroyed Voldemort's body, and ended his current reign of terror. Voldemort, now convinced that this child must be prophetically special in some manner, made it his mission to destroy Harry Potter, but in the process of doing so, gave that very same child very personal reasons to seek vengeance. The desire to avenge his parents, his love for his parents, and Sirius, and Cedric, in other words, not only motivated him, but protected him from the temptation to join Voldemort, or even simply dabble in the Dark Arts for weapons with which to carry out that revenge (which, I should add, a great many fics have Harry doing, much to the detriment of his character).

Harry was, in short, protected by his capacity to love. And Voldemort, unable to understand that love could motivate someone to do such things, continued to believe that Harry was somehow special in a cosmic or fated way, and continued to antagonize and escalate the conflict until he ultimately created the very environment and setting that ultimately lead to his downfall.

There is no more fate forcing Harry to fight Voldermort than there is Neville, or Ron, or Dudley. What's forcing Harry and Voldemort to fight is the same thing that forces a battered and noble rebel who has suffered deep and personal loss at the hands of the tyrant to fight said tyrant.

Voldemort won't let Harry Potter live because he believes in, he puts stock in, a Prophecy that never had any actual legitimate meaning or force behind it at all, just as all Prophecies are in canon. Harry Potter won't let Voldemort live for his mother, for his father, for Sirius and Cedric Diggory, for all the terrible deeds he knew had been done, and for all the people once alive who now lie dead.

Voldemort was a tyrant. And like all tyrants, he created his own worst enemy from the very people he oppressed and terrorized. By making it his personal mission to destroy Harry Potter, he made it Harry Potter's personal mission to end Voldemort once and for all.

Just like how the battered rebel could turn away from the fight, and go far away and forget everything that happened, so too could Harry. And just like how the tyrant could turn aside from his path of megalomania and destruction and seek redemption, or even an alternative plan, so too could Voldemort. But they won't, for the same reasons the rebel and the tyrant wouldn't.

If Voldemort had never heard of the Prophecy, or if he had heard it but then discarded it, none of this would have happened. But he did. The Prophecy only matters because Voldemort believes it to be true, and Harry and Voldemort are only destined to fight insofar as Voldemort would never allow what he believed to be a threat to him exist, and Harry would never be so selfish or cowardly as to allow such wrongs to go unrighted.

Don't stand there and tell me that Harry Potter was "forced" to fight Tom Marvolo Riddle. Don't tell me that 'Fate' decreed a final confrontation between the Boy-Who-Lived and the Dark Lord Voldemort. Because to say that it was forced upon them is to ignore not only Voldemort's biggest weakness (his inability to understand love lead to him not expecting or being able to foresee the uprising of those who oppose him due to things that they love, like Lily Potter or the DA did), but it's also throwing away one of the core, fundamental parts of Harry Potter's character.

It's the same thing that allowed him to see his family in the Mirror, and later, him retrieving the Philosopher's Stone. It's the same quality that led him to victory in the Triwizard, that drove him to defend himself in the graveyard, that had him unquestioningly go into the Chamber of Secrets after Ginny Weasley.

It's the same thing that kept him out of the grasp of Darkness, even when it could have, would have, offered him power he so desperately needed. It's the same thing that lead him to sacrifice himself to protect Hogwarts, thereby destroying the last Horcrux. It's the same thing that motivated his use of the Stone, not out of selfishness, but to see those that he loved one last time.

It's love. The one thing Voldemort never understood. The one thing that Harry has in such quantities, and that Voldemort has naught at all, that Voldemort cannot even touch Harry without being burned, cannot enter his mind without being tormented, while Harry is free to come and go as he pleases.

If you underestimate love, and the effects it can have on those who can feel it, in favor of things like 'cosmic powers' and 'destiny', then you're just making the same mistake Voldemort did.

And you saw what happened to him.



He doesn't even have a nose. Do you want to lose your nose?

 

I don't see anything about Grindelwald there.

 

You were a convenient dramatic lead-in. Just roll with it.


[EDIT]

On the Grindelwald side, I'd argue for argument's sake that it's not fanon. Rowling herself has implied this to be the case, though she hasn't outright said it, and we don't know the details of the situation. I would not lump authorial implication, canon though it is not, in with the same category as Harry rebelling against Dumbledore and going to Diagon Alley to get a custom wand from someone nobody has ever heard of after picking up a magic trunk and befriending All The Goblins.

Neither is canon, true, but if we're ranking this in tiers, Things Rowling Has Nudge-Winked as Being True stand above things that a bunch of idiots invented as a conduit for their own teenage rebellions.

 

Well, there should be.

To which you replied:

I made no statement about prophesies, just Grindelwald. So if you're positioning your position as opposed to mine, it should be talking about Grindelwald.

Edit for your edit: Well, alright then.

 

Not a fan of being a dramatic lead-in, then? Because I could change it if you want.

Editception:

I mentioned you because he also mentioned you in his post as a source he uses, before dismissing the "prophecies are just weather forecasts" point I raised. The only correlation between you and the prophecies is that he referenced both in his post. I used one to lead into the other. I was not insinuating you said anything about the prophecies.

And now we have talked about this for far too long. Let's change the subject.

What happened to your nose? Did you abandon love and tarnish your soul for forbidden magical powers?

 

I seem to recall JKR saying in an interview somewhere if she had her time again she'd edit OotP because she thought it was too long.

Hope note as that's one of my favourites, a lot of ancillary character development in that book.