I'm not sure if you really apply the idea of a superpower to the magical nations. Also, a huge population isn't necessary good, and the age of the civilisation means very little - some of the oldest civilisations in the Muggle world are also the most ass-backward.

 

older society older organised magic, and more established magical society. otherwise America would own all.

 

Simply not true. Magic is pretty much analogous to technology. The oldest civilizations are not by necessity the most technologically advanced.

 

Margaret Thatcher is a woman? :awesome

Shame on you Methene, shame on you. I'll be rooting for the day when the long suffering Portuguese heroes throw off the yoke of Castillian oppression! *drapes self in the flag*



PS . I really love the Baroness, but someone had to say it...

PPS. @ Methene How about a magical ETA? :awesome Lemme guess, too muggle?

 

I think that magical britan, is based on a Marxist system, in both Ideology and Methodology.

 

Uh, how so?

In fact, I'm just going to say no to that. Several things to think about before try to argue the point:

Lucius Malfoy.
Weasley Wizarding Wheezes and Diagon alley.
Lack of a working class.

 

It's the whole Pureblood thing.
A certain Clique control pretty much everything - everybody else is just working class, with your white-collars (half-bloods/non-ancient&noble purebloods & Blood-traitors), Blue collars (Muggleborns) and shit kickers (Squibs/half-breeds).
If you're not part of the 1 party Ministry, you're a merchant or a boot-licker (unless you work for Gringotts).
St. Mungos, I will assume runs off of Ministry money and Pureblood "donations", therefore under the clique's control. Also, there is the Daily Prophet, which is as above, so people are only informed with only what is wanted known.

For the most part, the MoM has regulations and laws for pretty much every avenue of wizarding life - putting the icing on the maxrism cake of the british wizarding world.

I.E Marxism, not what Marx believed it should be.

 

It's more fascist than Marxist. Under fascism, the private property of means of production still exists as an empty shell, even though the state controls it indirectly. This matches the British WW more than the direct state ownership of the means of production, aka, Marxism/Communism.

 

Since when did the magical government control private enterprise in the wizarding world?

All nations regulate private industry, as does magical Britain. That doesn't make them Marxist or Fascist.

 

No, I extrapolate and come up with good reason why some things in the real world could be explained by Magic. For example, there is a Dr. Who episode where the Dr. sets off Vesuvius in 79 A.D. We know that didn't happen, but it makes potentially good fiction.

Fine, no biggy.

All the Best and fuck you if you don't like that,

Kerney

 

bumping my own thread, i've worked on a rough timeline of the HP universe:

2000 B.C to 1 A.D:
Rise of Magical civilization along muggle civilization. Both groups evolve on a parallel line. Magical kind begins to divide into two distinct groups: Fae and humans.

Magical humans originally servant class to the Fae Court, which is divided into numerous groups across the world. Later given freedom and create Atlantis, the ultimate pinnacle of human magic.

Magical and muggle civilizations begin to branch apart, with muggle technology on the rise. Similar societies, with the exception of religion in muggle society, usually based on Fae or powerful human Magicals.

Distinct magics begin to grow. Fae begin to fear their former servants as they gain in numbers supplemented by the Mundane.


First Fae-Atlantean War, stretching for 300 years. Muggle society is left relatively untouched, with their evolution becoming on a much faster rate than magical society.

Second Fae-Atlantean War, stretching for 200 years. Atlantis falls to the forces of King Avallach, who is felled by Myrridin Emrys, later known as the Prince of Enchanters. Magical humans are scattered to the four winds, and end up creating local communities within muggle empires, hoping to reclaim their greatness in the primitive mundane cultures.


The Kinslayer War erupts with the formation of the Seelie and Unseelie Courts. Kinslayer War ends with the destruction of Avalon and the Royal Line and the regression of numerous Fae species. Brownies are enslaved by magical humans, with creatures such as Lycans, Vampires, Naga and Veela fighting each other in accordance of their respective Prince. Magical Humans grow back in number, but with a significant loss of magical knowledge due to the destruction of Atlantis.


Emergence of the Roman Empire as a single solidifying force backed by the largest magical human community. Drastic measures to extend his life are made by Merlin, bent on insuring the returning rise of a strong unified magical community.


1 A.D to 2000 AD
Conquering of much of Europe by Rome, major rival of Parthia in the East. Britain is conquered by the Romans, and the local druidic cults worshipping Fae are wiped out, leaving Merlin to pick up the pieces and convert the local Magicals to supporting Rome.


Rome falls to the barbarian Hordes of Asia, with Merlin backing a Welsh Prince to power as the High King of Logres (Britain) as a possible second Rome in the Celtic dominated areas of Europe. Merlin falls to Morgana, one of the most powerful Veela of Britain and half sister to King Arthur who falls the result of his incestuous relationship with Morgana, Mordered; the Black Knight. Morgana falls to Nimue, Witch Queen of the Naga.


Feud between Veela and Naga results, Britain falls into chaos; leading to local magical communities to take power and control over remote areas of Britain. In the end, local muggle kings begin to regroup and unify Britain, leading to a strong Muggle Nation. Similar efforts are made in other medieval nations, some of which do not live out without a strong magical presence, i.e. Burgundy, Navarre, and Flanders.


Increasing xenophobia by the Muggles of the World leads to the International Secrecy Act and the formation of Ministries of Magic to take care of the newly formed nations.


Grindelwald War occurs in 1940’s Europe along with the Great War, collapsing the German, Russia, and Austria Hungary Empires. Rise of the United States and China as mundane superpowers. China and Peru remain magical superpowers due to their varied and ancient knowledge of magic.

Grindelwald’s lieutenants remain a problem for the magical nations of Europe, as many of them are supported by local Fae communities and tend to strike at large. Defeat of last of his lieutenants was in 1976, when the last possible rival to the Dark Lord Voldemort was struck down by the Polish Ministry of Magic.


Rise of Dark Lord Voldemort in Britain, battling the local Ministry of Magic to a standstill until defeat in 1981 by a halfblood known as Harry Potter or the Boy Who Lived.

Return of Lord Voldemort in 1994, continuance of the Civil War in Britain, leading to a short reign of Voldemort’s puppet ministry till 2000. Brought down by local resistance forces led by Harry Potter, now referred to as the “Chosen One”.


what do you think?

 

I have a small theory I am working into my story, which of course I will not reveal in full now, but since there was a reference to Spain and Portugal amalgamation I will elaborate.

Wizards were a key part of the Roman Empire, owing much to its rapid expansion across Europe. Disastrous events led to the fall of the Roman Empire and as the last Roman Emperor Romulus Augustus (ironical name for the last one don't you think) died, wizards took a monumental decision, one that would have massive consequences on modern day magical society.

Known to the modern day Wizards as the Great Flight, the Scattering, the Spread, the Colonization, in different parts of Europe, the seven tribes of Wizards in Rome, based on each of the different hills in Rome, decided to abandon the Eternal City, scattering throughout Europe. One tribe decided to remain, while the other six went on to settle in new lands.

One particular tribe, of particular interest, under the leadership of the now revered Merlin, travelled toghether with the tribe that would one day inhabit modern day France, settled in Britannia, overcoming the local wizards/integrating with them.

The seven tribes (reason why seven is a magical number), still met once a year, settling down what was an early form of the International Confederation of Wizards. Eventually, these tribes formed into nations and still sit on the ICW as the founding members (somewhat like the permanent five on the UN).

The reason why the history we read is so different is that in the year of hiding, a massive campaign wiped out historical records, rewriting them etc.

That's a small snippet of what I am using. I know it is stretched but it suits my purposes and sets a good political stage.

 

Methene: That's actually a rather pleasant background. Not one that I would particularly choose, as I've always thought retconning great enterprises (like Rome) or people into being wizards cheapens their achievements somewhat, but still very nice and neat.

Arab-assassin guy: Have you mixed up Dresden and Potter? 'Fae' and "(Un)Seelie' have absolutely no place in Harry Potter whatsoever. That you term werewolves 'Lycans' also worries me.

 

I'm glad you replied. I am dying for some HP talk tonight for some reason, and yet the threads are flooded with other things.

You have a point about cheapening achievements. Perhaps I should restate slightly. I don't see them as the sole reason for Rome's success. That could be changed actually, and I think I won't mention it, actually.

It got me thinking really, about seven and I needed an international perspective on things and I remembered ancient Rome had seven hills and so on.

Arab-assaassin: While the theory is extensive, I am somewhat sketchy about mixing it too much mythology in HP. It works well for crossovers but I like things slightly more restrained.

 

What's Dresden?
As for the Lycan bit, when you write it dozen times, its easier than saying werewolf. (I also blame Underworld for saying Lycan instead of werewolf)
The Unseelie and Seelie courts things I wrote are well before the time of Harry Potter in the timeline, When the whole Fae species things all regressed into weaker forms after losing Avalon and the Royal Line. got the idea off of Gargoyle fan fiction series, which are suprisingly good.

I included the Fae thing to sorta find a reason to explain anti-magical creature beliefs in HP. Destroying Atlantis would certainly piss off a lot of wizards and arouse anti-Fae hatred if they had gone to war twice. If the major players in magic are all killed off in the early parts of the timeline, that leaves the latter part rather open to work to get it to seem at least slightly reasonable.

 

Dresden Files, by Jim Butcher, the new craze around DLP.

I see your point about justifying hatred of magical creatures, but perhaps that could be done with true HP world creatures.

Say wizards were on the bottom rung until they discovered wands, hunted by giants, squashed by trolls, trampled by Centaurs.

Until a young wizard named Jupiter managed to cause dreadful effects through a piece of wood he had kept since childhood...

And then, Wizardkind had changed. From the mud they trod through they would arise and teach them what it was like to be hunted.

 

That is pretty good, but the HP creatures were based on Fae and Mythlogical Creatures: House Elves, Giant Spiders, Veela, Naga, Hags, Giants, Trolls, Goblins, etc.

All I'm saying is after losing Avalon and the Royal Lineage, They began to regress for a while before stablising. Sorta the reverse of evolution if you will; We evolved to a current state and physically we're stable, no crazy D.C mutations or the like.

 

The idea of trying to find a need to justify the hate of magical creatures is somewhat misguided, I think. Were it a rational hate (I wouldn't call it hate anyway - more like prejudice) then it wouldn't be so bad.

It's the very irrationality of the prejudice that makes it prejudice in the first place.

But yeah, your history of HP needs a lot more HP and a lot less mainstream fantasy in.

A while back I was planning to write the HP book "A History of Magic", like JKR wrote Fantastic Beasts and QttA.

I've long lost the ambition to write it, but here's the barebones outline I came up with. It focuses mostly on western wizardry.

Prehistoric
- Observation that magic has apparently been around forever.
- Magical archaeology - dragon remains show them to be the oldest magical creatures on earth, have been found to be related to the dinosaurs.
- The First Wizards – evidence of wizards dating back to over 30,000 years BC.
- First named wizard and witch we have a record of – Adam and Eve, circa 4000BC.

Egypt
- First western overtly magical culture. Remains a magical superpower to this day.
- Outline Ancient Egyptian culture and practices. Speculation about Egyptian gods: wizards, or simply a muggle religion? Evidence points towards a combination of the two. Muggles created the religion in an attempt to explain away the apparently godlike things they saw.
- Magic of Egypt. Potions, controlled accidental magic, long rituals are the only way to cast spells (I think some credit goes to Shezza for that idea).
- Notable events – tie in with Mythology (Ra) and religion (Moses).

Greece
- Flourishing of magical thought. Magical theory and philosophy really started to be thought about. The problem of Dark magic (intent vs. intrinsic nature of the magic) was first put forward by Herpo the Foul, the original Dark wizard.
- Greek culture and practices.
- Magic of Greece. Same as Egypt, but less rituals and more of the controlled accidental magic.
- Notable events. Troy, mythological figures, Herpo the Foul, Alexander, Roman invasion.

Rome
- The beginnings of modern wizardry begin here.
- Wands invented by an Ollivander. Scope of magic increases dramatically.
- Spells being created at a massive rate: reason why Latin is such a prominent language in spells.
- Romans combined magical and Muggle empire building.
- Julius Caesar's insurrection. As he dies he curses (literally and figuratively) the Roman republic. Historians often say that the beginning of the end of the Roman civilisation began as early as Caesar. More truth to this than they know.
- Jesus. Powerful healer, went insane after managing to bring someone back to life. Only wizard in history to do so. Had a cult following of Dark wizards who, in the first recorded usage of the Imperius curse went on the largest undertaking of mind control in the history of wizard kind, "converting" thousands to Christianity. Roman magical authorities tried to stamp them out, but failed. Effects are still being felt today.
- Fall of the Empire.

Nordic
- Tie in with Norse mythology.
- Norse magic. Lots of enchanted weapons. Wands hadn’t really reached them.
- Growth into Britain.

Britain
- Dark Ages and Merlin the enchanter.
- Peverells.
- 1066 Norman invasion and the creation of the Warlock's council. Black and Malfoy families become prominent.
- Hogwarts founded by Saxon wizards far away from Norman strength in Scotland.
- International Confederation and Statute of Secrecy. Even though wizards had been shunning the Muggles more and more, it was still a huge task. Mass obliviations, all traces of wizards removed from Muggle documents. Only a few confused myths remain.
- English civil war and the end of the Warlocks council.

Modern Wizardry
- Ministry of Magic created.
- British Empire and American Independence. British wizards refused to get involved, especially due to Warlocks council recently being destroyed. Americans were quickly successful.
- Grindelwald.
- Voldemort's first rise.

Figures of Historical Importance
Trends Throughout History
Pureblood ideology
Goblins
Wizards vs. magical creatures.
Major Magical discoveries.
The Elder Wand/deathstick/wand of destiny.
The Mechanics of Internation Wizarding Relations and its correlation with the Muggle State.

 

Given the interactions between wizards/magical creatures, it's not very difficult to come up with a vicious cycle of distrust that could have gone on since anyone can remember.

Goblins: Constant revolts - as they are revolts and not wars, we can assume that humans and goblins have been under a single government for some time (if we take the history of face value, of course). This destroys the notion of Ragnar the great gold baron and his so called Goblin Nation, but there you go. Anyway, an uneasy confederacy with the humans controlling the political side and the goblins controlling the money supply has led to a very long but very uneasy truce, interspresed with flareups if one side thinks the other is encroaching on its power.

Veela: Paranoia and fear - partially justified - by the old families. Fear of manipulation of the primary heir by a veela and thus a long term transfer or wealth and power away from pure humans towards the Veela. Maybe this actually has happened a few times, leading to an ingrained panic that has led to several laws making it impossible for veela to own property in the wizarding world, leading ultimatley to status as second class citizens. Specific laws and recent changes up to the writer's discretion.

Giants: Yeah... Even canon doesn't defend them.