yes it makes sense for an author to paint romance as being violent.

i mean, of course all girls should date someone who regularly hurts them with their words (not to mention throws actual knives at their brothers just because they're peeved.)

and of course all boys should date a girl who uses physical violence to enact some sort of revenge (remember, Ron had cuts, scabs, and scars from the Avis spell).

methinks that Rowling learned nothing of her time of domestic strife. considering that domestic violence is a real problem all over the world - i'm glad Rowling is reinforcing it as a positive thing.

remember, verbal harassment is still harassment.

also, while more men hit women than women hit men...in the developed world both sexes hit each other almost equally - and women, via the method that Hermione uses...tend to kill more men than men kill women (by using objects, throwing things, etc.)

i agree totally that in order to make these ships work in HBP - Rowling had to completely change the characters.

we know nothing about Ginny. anything anyone knows is learned 3rd hand...usually via the author's mouth at interviews. the main protaganist's love interest should be jumping out of the pages...and yet the most we know about ginny is that she's got red hair, is popular (Harry and Ginny = Captain of Football team + Head Cheerleader), and makes a monster grow out of Harry's pants. it's as cliched a romance as it comes. it's completely generic and totally unrefined.

and the complete character assassination of Hermione was pretty sickening to watch. you're right, it DOES make sense that Ron and Hermione get together - but only after Hermione completely gets butchered so that she's no longer a positive female protaganist.

Rowling fucked up. before the debacle known as HBP - rowling wrote in such a way that the only possible literary pairing were Harry and Hermione.

period.

not even Cho, although Harry did spend the better part of TWO books pining over her. despite that - we still really don't know much about her.

and we don't know shit about Ginny.

the only female protaganist that we know in depth - at least as in depth as Harry, is Hermione.

so despite her anvil-sized hints for Heron, i think all the R/Hr shippers and Rowling herself forgot about the mountain sized literary hints for H/Hr.

 

Very good points Syn. I completely agree. The whole R/Hr thing has this air of being forced in the book. I mean one moment they are screaming at each other and then she's dreamily picking lint off his sholder?? The sudden reversal seems strange.

Indeed they are teenagers Dark Jedi but at the same time JKR seems to be hinting at this beeing the ideal pairings for life. I've seen, and I'm sure so have most of you, teen romances. There are those that break up in 2 days and those that last a little longer. A rare few go on for life (know a couple of those too). Ginny/Dean and Ron/Lav was the typical teen romance in HBP, with all the pink hearts and fluffy bunnies. Then suddenly you have Ron/Hermy in what seems to more of an adult romance, connecting in a deeper level than most married couples. I'm sorry that kind of step requires maturity and while Hermy can be, can you honestly say Ron can be mature enough so suddenly?

 

very true.

if JKR put out a list of what specifically were 'anvil sized hints' - bet that within a matter of seconds a h/hr shipper would put out a list that counterpoints it.

i mean, what were some hints (not getting into the lunacy of reading between every line, word, sentence, etc...i mean some people based r/hr on the fact that JKR wrote 'harry, ron and hermione' grouped in that specific way.

3rd book r/hr go to hogsmeade. coulda sworn ron played a bit part in the book overall and that h/hr had the lions share of attention (together that is). they did rescue sirius by themselves after all.

4th book. 'Yule Brawl'. right, for some reason i think that HBP validates that ron wasn't entirely jealous of krum - but rather annoyed that hermione was indeed fraternizing with the enemy (not to mention outshining him...i mean, his theme for the book WAS jealousy).

course, it was in GoF that hermione sided with harry, had stories written about a h/hr romance, had krum suspicious of harry because hermione would talk about him...oh - and that kiss on the cheek at the end seems to even things out between the ships.

in the same way that GoF is the r/hr shippers' book of choice - so too is OotP the book for h/hr. if you don't know why, i'm sure someone other than me can make a list. oh, but ron did buy hermione a bottle of perfume...which i'm sure she loved.

etc., etc., ad infiniteum.

 

Of course I read the first book, several times infact - I thought her portrayal of teens was excellent - they are growing up, a persons personality is supposed to change when they're a teen - that's life.

As for Emerson or as you put it "that guy from mugglenet" better him than the H/Hr shipper who...hmm how did they put it oh yes! Called Emerson a:

"unprofessional, arrogant, unprofessional, insensitive, unprofessional, immature, inconsiderate, unprofessional, irresponsible, unprofessional, juvenile, unprofessional, tactless and unprofessional"

Nice insult buddy...I mean there was almost nothing Emerson could say on his Wall of Shame to make that comment sound more ridiculous than it already did.

((By the way - yes I do find the Wall of Shame incredibly funny, especially that special edition - it had the majority of other HP fans laughing at H/Hr shippers for months - we honestly thought you were more mature than that.))

Okay - I'll be honest - I'm not open minded when it comes to this - Yes I do think I'm better than you...get over it. I think you take yourself much too seriously.

I came on because I like to learn what people think, hear opinions - that doesn't mean I'm going to agree.

My, my, someones a little bit testy aren't they - Now let me guess either you got up on the wrong side of the bed - or you are so obsessed with fictional characters that you are accuseing the author of being wrong. I'm really sorry but I'm going to have to guess the second one.

Believe it or not, I'm not actually only permitted to speak to people my own age, so yes just possibly I know some older people because gee...maybe they are friends with my parents - or shock of shocks - maybe an older person took the time to talk to me about it.

Yes - guess what I'm sixteen, that doesn't mean I dumb. Pretending younger people know nothing would be as stereotypical as me calling anyone old I meet on the net a "old man who needs a life who more likely than not lives in his parents basement."

So sure I'll be the uneducated teen - but that means that you have to be the old childish pervert.

He hugged her? Big deal - I hug my friends all the time, I think half of you are too old to remember how teens react and how teens do romance, J.K.'s potrayal is what I see around my High School every single day.

Look whos talking, I mean all you did on here was flame - all I've gleaned about your opinion in your message was that you don't agree with me and you like H/Hr. I'm the immature young kid? Honestly your some of the strangest people I've ever met - get over it - it's only a book, not your life...and if it is your life...well that's just really very sad.

 

Deleted because I didn't have anything nice to say to either of you.

If this topic were in Mature Discussion it would be locked by now.

 

ad hominem attacks are a pretty clear sign that someone is losing an argument.

also shows a lack of tact and logic.

on a final note...everyone does realize that by the end of HBP - R/Hr hasn't happened and that H/G is over right? no matter how you spin it - those are the closing facts.

an author is not above her words...and JKR's words and her feelings on the matter are two different things. it just shows the poor level of writing she puts out when she has to explain in interviews how a reader should view a character or a passage.

 

Tarawen, you accuse others of only flaming and not presenting a case... but as Elias Tesla already said, you are the one insulting people, and you are the one not backing up your opinions with any actual canon examples... just claiming they exist. Which possibly they do, but anyone reading your posts is not going to know that.

You also seem obsessed with the idea that everyone who disagrees with you is a Harry/Hermione shipper. You're wrong - most of the people on this forum are no more interested in H/Hr than they are in R/Hr, and are thus able to present a much more objective picture of the argument than you are. Admittedly I'm not one of them. I freely admit I hate Ron and any opinion I present is automatically biased against him. I'm not a keen advocate of the H/Hr ship, but really, I didn't see any evidence stacking up against it as I read the books.

I share the opinion that Hermione would have to completely debase herself to have a relationship with a patented moron like Ron, who, as we know, has the emotional range of a teaspoon. No smart girl I know (a fair few) would go anywhere near a boy who was THAT much less intelligent than her.

As for the canon 'hints', compare the Ron/Hermione 'hints' with the Harry/Hermione 'hints'.

Hint 1) Ron and Hermione argue all the time. This is sexual tension.
This is completely a matter of opinion. The books before HBP contain no suggestive descriptions, no innuendo, no backhanded references (and of course they ARE children's books) that could cause anyone to suspect that their arguing is anything more than simple arguing. Claiming that it is sexually charged is firstly a little disengenuous because the arguing began long before either of them could be considered to have hit puberty, and thus you can equally assume that it is completely innocent.

Hint 2) Ron's jealousy over Viktor Krum taking Hermione to the ball. This is touted as a serious hint, and yet Ron never actually shows any interest in Hermione herself - he is wholly focused on Krum. Why is this? Because he only cares about her to the extent that he wants what Krum wants? The rest of GoF shows us that Ron is an irrationally jealous person who is more concerned with getting things for himself than with the welfare of his supposedly 'best' friend.

Compare with this the extremely close friendship of Harry and Hermione that developed over the course of books three, four and five in particular. Yes this is not neccessarily anything but a close friendship, but at the very least there is nothing ambiguous about it, and unless you have no understanding of how real human relationships work you will admit that it is a far better basis for a deeper relationship that incessant sniping and harrassment.

I don't normally bring up 'the kiss', because at the time I read it I did think it was innocent, but until the irrational character butchery of HBP, it was the only concrete thing that existed in any book for either ship.

The only conclusion I can come to is that at the same time as Rowling was adding in the 'hints' of Ron/Hermione - which I believe she made far too.. well, not subtle exactly, but rather ambiguous. She, without realising, constructed a far stronger basis with more 'hints' for a relationship between Harry and Hermione. The Ron/Hermione 'hints' are far from 'anvil-sized' - and simply not large or solid enough to overcome the closeness that she built up between Harry and Hermione - which is why most intelligent readers I've talked to (and all the adults - including my 59 year old psychotherapist informal godmother) found the characterisation of Hermione in particular in HBP to be utterly incomprehensible.


On a slightly OOC note, Elias Tesla, I was impressed by your literary skills, but I'm afraid your science is lacking. In the interests of accuracy, allow me to correct you.

It is an all too common myth that before Copernicus (and also Christopher Columbus), the Church and the people believed that the Earth was flat.

Before what is known as the Copernican Revolution, the scientific community, with the backing of the Catholic Church, held as true Ptolemy's extremely mathematically accurate vision of the universe, which held that the Earth was fixed, stable and unmoving, in the center, and that the other celestial bodies travelled around it (though not always in circular or even elliptical orbits). It was also spherical. Copernicus proposed that in fact the Earth was part of a solar system, travelling around the Sun, and at the same time spinning on its axis. At the time he was widely ridiculed, for fairly plausible reasons, and his theory was only fully accepted after the invention of Newtonian mechanics.

 

*waves* Hi. Remember me?

Would all persons who made a unbiased well informed post please form a line to my left.

Would anyone who made a post filled with arrogance and close mindedness please step to my right.

Now that you're seperated I have this here shiny bottlecap. It's a fight to the death who gets it. *begin*

-Elias and Tinder good posts ty for the effort

 

opinion

hallo everyone
first i just wanted to say that i am not so much new to this forum it is just the first time that i am posting something - most of the times i just looked at the fic recomendations sections.
now i have read the two pages of this thread about the "obvious" ship
and the way i see it there are a few possibilities
1)i totaly agree with what "Elias Tesla" said in his replay - dude what you said is so true that you have no idea, and if you combine Elias Tesla's theory that there can be clues to every ship that you can think of, with the "fact" that J.K.Rowling said that she considers "the-book-that-shall-not-be-named" like the first part and that the seventh book will be his second part - so it is possible to say that J.K wrote all of the previous books with a cetain ship in mind but left clues to other ships just to confuse us and then confuse us some more in the sixth book and then finally give us the answer in the last book which will be something that nobody expected or that most said will never happen.
2)the second thing that i think happened was that - if i remember correctly J.K once said that she thinks that Hermione is really like her self and that Her husbend is really like Ron becuase he really made her laugh of some such nosense (i think i saw it on a documentry that they once did on the Harry Potter series), and becuase she thinks like that she decided to make the charecters in the sixth book behave totaly diffrently then normal (for most of them a complte 180') just so she would be able to manuver the story to that outcome - that Hr/R will happen.
now my thought about the verious ships:
1)H/G - no way in hell, i think that the only possible way that Harry and Ginny can be together is if she gives him a love potion becuase that kind of love that Ginny has for Harry is almost (if not) Hero-worship and relationships simply cannot be based on that - now i know that this is exactly what happened in the sixth book but i think that here J.K just made them get together becuase she wanted to regarless of how their relationsip progressed since the first book - all her life Ginny hears storys about the great and powerful Harry Potter - the Boy-Who-Lived - then she goes to school and he saves her life from riddle then we berely(sp?) hear about her in the third and fourth book and only a little bit in the fifth book and then suddenly Boom! in the sixth book Harry finds that he likes her (i.e the monster in his pants...) and even then when they are together we learn absolutly nothing about her.
2)Hr/R - like i said before this ship will most likely be the one that happens in the end becuase of J.K but as a ship i think that Hermione will never in her right mind get together with Ron - and for all of you out there that really like to say "but they argue like a married couple" in my opinion this is like the lamest reason anyone can come up with
just to give you an example - i had to good friends in one of my classes that tended to fight a lot about anything and everything but regarless of that the were good friends after a while thay thought that they should start dating - it blew right in their faces - their fighting had gotten worse and they were misrable in the end they broke up and worked for another 4 months to try and restore thei friendship.
another reaosn why this ship wouldnt happen - is just that i hate Ron.
in my opionion he is a spoiled lazy dumbass that dosent do anything other then play chess, quiddich, fight with Hermione and make Harry neglect his school work. Ron is like the "good" sided version of Draco malfoy - if he didnt have Harry and Hermione to ground him he would have gotten very much like him in his attitude towards everything.
and even then Ron has Grown up in a pureblood Household and everytime we hear about one of his brothers getting together with somone it is a pureblood witch - even if they dont want to admit it the Weaslyes do care about it and some of that would have mose certainly passed on to Ron - and becuase of that i think that the only way why he wants Hermione is just so that Harry wont have her.
on a final note fr this ship - even if they do get together in book seven - i think it will be a really short and painful realationship.
H/Hr - its my favorite ship so you could call me a BIT biased when i am talking about it - in my opinion the "anvil sized clues" that people talk about that say that Harry and Hermione will get together are more concrete and the ones concerning Hr/R there is a really good article in the HP-lexicon about this ship that i think you should read.
thanks for letting me rant here
shlomo