Hey, what's wrong with living in a cave!? Betman does! And belching is a perfectly natural process... yeah...

 

Well yeah... I mean here in the good old U.S. of A., we only just let the bitches start voting less than a century ago. Give us a few more decades and they may even get equal wages too. But slap a man's name on a creative product and we'll give it a fair shot. Just don't look too closely at the hugs he gives his pool boy, Paulo.

He's not a heterosexual male though. He's married. The rules we apply to manly men, do not apply to married men. It's like complaining to Jews about Jesus. They don't have the same rules.

Romance is the single most important element in any work of fiction? You gotta be fucking shitting me! I'll admit Romance may be the most important element of Romance fiction. But in a mystery, a suspence, an action/adventure, a drama, a humor, or even an angst piece of work, romance is about as important as a bicycle to a fish.

Romance in movies is the reason there's a fast forward button. Romance in fiction is why nothing prevents you from turning the page now. Or scrolling down. Romance is a symptom of the slightly contagious festering disease called Love. Children are the most costly side effect. Death is the cure-all, but occasionally a good lawyer is all you need to treat it. Or a hooker.

 

The whole point of the term 'fiction' implies, in and of itself, a lack or a separation from reality. How can you even begin to pragmatically compare this story to reality when so many things, like magic, have been added to give it that fantasy based idealism that is the reason most people read it?

As for the other opinions, well, that’s what they are, opinions. Everyone has a right to their views, and it has nothing to do with being in touch with your female side, or what not. I for one can out-sap any teenage girl out there whilst writing. I mean, life is full of an array of aspects that make it a reality, and we can’t expect them all to be portrayed in writing, however good the author might be.

In any case, if romance is the only thing that drives your existence or gives it meaning, be it in fiction or reality, then good. But I, for one, find that it makes life too plain and flat, too two-dimensional, if you will. How can you stay fixed on romance when true love is all the more complex and beautiful (see, I can out sap anyone, damnit) and forget personal fulfillment and the aspiration to be something better then you already are? How can you disregard family, friendship and all other relationships that fill our lives? Are they not sufficiently complete to base literature in?

I can honestly list many more things, but you can’t possibly expect me to agree with something as simple as romance as the driving factor of a story. I suggest you read something other then sappy and trashy novels and expand your awareness to the rest of what life has to offer, and what prose has been written about it, because I can tell you now, you are missing out on too much, my friend. Too much.

*Steps down from his personalized soapbox*

 

I agree with SlytherinDamian to a point. I get the impression that Jeconais's getting nitpicked to hell here because he clearly possess the talents to write deeper and darker projects that all of us would love but at the same time, we know he never would.

The first time I touched Jeconais's stuff, I knew he was writing 'fairy tales' which is true not just for Hope, but you know what, the unrealistic part of the romances he write is distinctively what makes me like them.

As for romance, well I'm inclined to agree that for fanfiction, it's the best way to basically move things along. Most (including me) write crappy romances but without it, I don't think a lot would be driven to move forward with a story. Romance is 'the' best way to portray character interactions, motivations and to display full range of human emotions because as nonjon said, it's a symptom of love, and love is the most important of humanity etc etc...and all those mushy things.

 

I prefer hatred and bloodlust personally, but whatever floats your proverbial boat I suppose.

 

See, this is the problem I suspect. I meant men as in males with an IQ above 80, and aparently you lot were talking about the few knuckledraggers still fighting evolution. Married men are heterosexual btw, but I have a sneaking suspicion you know this...

I shit you not, my hairy friend. What drama can you have were love is not the driving force? Angst? Who the hell is the protagonist adventurig for if not towards romance? Humour isn't real art, so I'll give you that, but no decent work of fiction I can think of, ever, was completely devoid of romance. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, X-Men, the Matrix, Harry Potter, Blade... I could go on forever. The only notable movie that comes to mind is T2, and eventhen thre was a heavy dose of subtext. If there is no love,the characters aren't human, and if they aren't human, you cannot have compelling storytelling, drama, angst, suspense, etc.

Romance and fluff are not the same thing, and the way you're talking, you're acting like romance has to mean happy fluffy bunny goodness. At least that's what it seems to me reading while reading or post.

As someone who has defended hate with equal passion, I feel comfortable defending love, my masculinity doesn't suffer. Masculinity, femininity; hate, love; night, day... everything must be experienced or nothing can be enjoyed or understood. I really hope that last quote is a joke, because if not, your life must suck.


This post is also directed at other responses, where applicable. I can't be bothered to quote every post and repeat myself.


LS, your post and flagship fic support my opion, as far s I'm concerned. Hatred and bloodlust are great, but picture your fic with Harry killing Cho. Whatsername Li. Hitomi (?). If you removed all the romantic interests from your story, what would our favourite Dakaath be motivatd by? Sheer hatred and bloodlust by themselves would be boring rather quick, in absense of any of the opposite, wouldn't it? It reminds me of Grand Theft Auto and Morrowind... running around killing and crap is fun, but you get sick of it soon enough, and want something deeper. Love is that something in the vast majority of true or fiction stories that ensnare us, and make us care. Take the romance, happy or unhappy, out of Shakespeare, legends, movies, music, anythng really that tells a story, and it would all be pointless. It would lead nowhere. Life would be pointless. A characters life would be pointless. What? Harry's pissed and killing everyone? Why? No reason, he's just crazy, but not due to any females or family, because love doesn't exist in this story. Yay. Intruiging. What's that? He killed everyone? Now he's alone? Compelling as all hell.

 

I'm ending up responding to more posts than I thought I would...

I was equating romance with love, if that isn't clear from my last response, I apologize. I include drama, angst, etc. I suppose family doesn't fit with the connotation of the word romance these days, but yes, I was even including that. I suppose I should have said love drives all good works of fiction, but really, I don't consider romance something other than love, so it boils down to a communication error here... I think. Romance is just the quissisential 'genre' for love, so I thought it was obvious.

 

Well, if it is love in general that you’re talking about; then yes, I completely agree with you. But the way some posts have been worded points to Romance as a solitary, stand alone thing. And as far as I know, love is far more complex then that. Romantic love is but a fraction of it, and only one sliver of the whole picture. Relationships of all kind and human interactions are what drive most pieces of literature, and yes, love is a big influence in all of them, but there is a difference between the love of a family, friends, pets and even material things, from the kind of romance that is used in fiction. Even between your own siblings you can’t say with all honesty that you love them all the same, because that would be impossible.

Romantic love happens at the beginning of a relationship, when all the hormones and pheromones are in the works, and the human mind and body set themselves in preparation to find a mate (how clinical, huh?). Everything is seen though rose tinted glasses, and experiences with heightened senses because of it, but if a deeper connection, on a more realistic level isn’t achieved, then the relationship will most likely fail. Alas, I fear that most works of fiction only use the first few stages of romantic love, and rarely do they go further then that.

"Love does not begin and end the way we seem to think it does. Love is a battle, love is a war; love is a growing up."

And yes, for me, romantic love equals more to fluff then any other thing in fiction, because that’s the way that the majority use it and portrayed it. I know that even within romantic love there are a vast number of differences, all depending on the individuals, but not everyone has the life experience to depict it realistically, so we are confronted with a gaggle of obscure, perfect happy go-lucky romances that make my eyes go sticky because of all the sap. And that my friend, is why I skip most romance fics.

This one, however, I like, because the author is purposely setting the romantic parts of the story in a fantasy context and not trying to establish a too realistic starting point for it. Although I don’t know if I worded that right.

 

You missed the key word. Married men are not manly men. When you get married, you lose control over your testiculars. They no longer belong to you. Manly men never have to call home and check in, when they're at the ballpark with other 'men'. Married men know just how far the leash on them can stretch. Or if they don't, they will learn quickly. Married men have someone they can depend upon above all else, someone at home they can always count on, someone who they must answer to, and whom must answer to them. Shackling yourself to someone until death do you part comes with benefits and drawbacks. One of which is you lose your manliness. This is unavoidable.

See there is a big difference between romance and love, when it comes to creative works. Love can be compassion and caring. Every buddy movie, like say a Lethal Weapon (the first couple or so) where it is devotion to a job, or a partner, not a lover. Perhaps there used to be love of the dead wife, and it's the need for revenge now. But that dead wife could just as easily be a brother or daughter. No romance necessary. Think 'The Punisher' or even a prison break sort of thing. 'The Fugitive' or 'The Shawshank Redemption.' Red wanted freedom, not to go out and love a new lady. Andy was in jail for supposedly killing his wife. He no longer had any romance ahead of him. It was a singular person's journey for hope. Again, no romance at all, but a fantastic story.

My problem is the incessant need that one person should always be hoping for or seeking out the perfect compliment to them in another single other person. The desire that there's only one perfect match for you, and finding that perfect match is necessary.

Having a single focus for romantic love can push a character or person more than not having one, but there are other elements and things as well. "Castaway" is another excellent story where it was his love for a person that gave him the strength to go on, and I found the story a million times more interesting and compelling because his 'love' had moved on, and he had a life with a wide open blank slate at the end. Romance is merely observing the courtship, which holds very little interest for me. Catholic priests allow Jesus and God to be that one person they hold higher than any other. Stories about them and with them are every bit as good as one where our protagonist wants to find the right time to kiss the girl. Neo-noir type stories, like 'Payback.' His wife shot and tried to kill him. Now it's all about getting his money back and a bit of revenge. Again, all the better without the romance. Kill Bill is more recent excellent story about revenge. The daughter provides the love, and she kills her former lover and father of the child. All the better for it. "Rashomon" is still one of my all-time favorite movies, but there's no romance in it. There is a husband and wife, but the romance that may or may not be between them is not what makes it good. It's a brilliant look at analyzing a crime from differing viewpoints and the absence of absolute truth. As well as despite the lack of clarity, the triumph of the human spirit.

Love represents the intense reasoning and desire for characters and providing strength. But it can be love of friends, love of family, love of money, love of your favorite gun. Romance is just the way most use, and in my opinion the least interesting way. Or maybe I've just seen it done too many times, that all the others seem more interesting.

And don't get me started on "Humor isn't real art."

 

I agree with Nonjon.


Look at "Law and Order". 3 different shows and not a DROP of love between them. (Of course, secretly all the characters are unhappy and all the viewers are ACTUALLY bored) :wink:

 

I'm not sure if that was geared at me or not, but even just look at the story and author this thread should be about: Jeconais and Hope. His fics, this one included have some great moments of humor. And I know without those small bits, I, and probably a lot of others, wouldn't care at all for his stuff. You take out the levity, the bits that are sarcastic and funny, and well, it's a fine story that's not very entertaining for me to read.

Ditto for Bobmin. If his fics didn't have the bits of humor they did, they wouldn't even be worth reading, in my opinion. Though a few here may think that anyway with Bob and Alyx's current fic.

And yeah, Law and Order, or the current most popular series, the CSI shows are all highly popular and romance-less. But for pure entertainment and a severe lack of romance, it would be shameful not to mention porno. That's excellent movie-making, and well, there's not a whole lot of romance there. A fair amount of pizza delivery, cable repairing, and of course hollywood casting, but not a lot of romance.

 

I just don't consider humour to be art. I love humour, and some fics indeed are only good becase of their humour (or unintentional crappiness), but ifthat's all a fic has going for it, enjoyable as it may be to have a laugh, it doesn't quaify as art to me. Other things I don't consider art: anything made for a profit rather than strictly for the love of the medium, fecal matter depicting the Virgin Mary, pornography, video games, toilet paper or plastic coverng something... I can't think of more atm, that's it for now.

I don't have time (or a computer to copy & paste) to quote and respond to everything, so I'll keep it general a short...

Romance is idealized 'perfect' love or the pursuit of idealized love (which any pursuit in fiction likely is). It can be a buddy cop film (to stick to an example given), platonic, sexual, familia, etc. It doesn't have to be typical oppisite sex dating type of love that is what it is incorrectly used to label these days in any way shape or form. That was what I meant. I would consider Leathel Weapon, Die Hard, etc to be tales of romance. Romance can mean love of concepts even, it doesn't have to be another person. An action movie like Pirates OTC is a tale of romance, yes because of the chick and dude, but even without them, Jack Sparrow's love of adventure and piracy make it a romance ina literal, ditionary defintion f the word. Romance can be replaced with the word passion or love easily. I think we're disagreeing because we view the word differently.

On married men - any man who has no power in a marriage, likely never had any power with girlfriends or their mother either. Becoming married doesn't make a guy wipped, being a pussy at heart makes a guy wipped. You check in with your wife because your wipped... well, some do. Others don't check in at all, married or not. Still others check in out of respect for their loved ones, and not because they're 'wipped'. That last group is what any real man is a part of, but that boils down to character, not their marital status.

If I ailed to address something important anyone wanted a response to, I missed it, in a bit of a rush. Apologies.

 

This was the best chapter yet! Jeconais had me roaring on the interaction with the families and the snarky comments made by Ron and Harry towards Jean, I was rooting for Harry at the interactions with Snape and Dumbledore and leaping to my feet at the end of the first Quidditch match. I'm looking forward to finally finding out what has happened to mess up Dumbledore so badly over the years--is he under some form of control? I wonder if maybe some of the reason Dumbledore is actin g so strnagely is perhaps his pensive is flawed and when he replaces his memories they aren't coming back as the same way they went in... Hmmm that's not a bad idea for a story right there! I also enjoyed the Krum\Harry interactions very much, Krum strikes me as a Bear of a Man... I just liked the way Jeconais wrote the character.

The b uild up in the romance department is good too. I was actually frustrated when the two of them were interrupted earlier on in this chapter. I'm curious as to whether the device Hermione intends to find to allow Gabby to temporarily be free from their bond will end up being used a s a weapon against the two lovers?

--bornagainpenguin

PS: The Lee Jordan bits were classic!

 

Yeah I loved the latest one, it's by far the best of the bunch. Krum's character is amazing. It's a good break from all of the DE!Krum that I've seen around lately. Anyways, I loved the Quidditch match and Lee Jordan. It just wouldn't be the same without his little comments and McGonagal's (too lazy to check the spelling ) threats. I'm not sure that I like the whole smart Ron thing thats been going on there, but it is a pleasant change from all the Ron bashing I've been reading lately.

I was actually reading another story when I got the update. After I read the latest chapter, the 1st story I was reading seemed like crap compared to Jeconais' writing. *sigh* Now I need to find another fic to read...

 

That's the thing; its nice to see someone make a better use of the character-- nice to see something other than Psychic Serpent influenced portrayals. I was reminded of some of the athletes you see ocasionally who really love the game (whatever that game may be) and aren't just playing for the money. Reading the interactions of this Krum and this Harry just made me smile for some reason.

I actually don't mind that so much in this story, I think he's made his mistakes and (finally) learned from them. People do grow up eventually, and I think that's what this Ron is an example of. Now if this characterization of Ron were attempted in fifth or sixth year I'd agree with you. This isn't really so bad IMHO when put into the perspective that this story takes place years later after the deafeat of Voldemort.

Heh, that's always the problem I have when reading anything by Jeconais too--its really hard to go back to anything else. I've read published authors who for all his faults, Jeconais sounds much better than. I'm just hoping that now he's writing Quidditch scenes that this means we're that much closer to seeing another chapter of 'This Means War!'

I don't know about the Dumbledore bits.. Did anyone else get the feeling there were two different Dumbledores in this fic? Ever since book Six came out Jeconais has changed his portrayal of Dumbledore from manipulative bastard! to sad shell of his former self! and more or less has made Dumbledore out to be someone to be pitied...

Anyone else seeing that?

Also, who else expects that Minerva McGongall will be moving to France if things with Dumbledore and Snape keep going this way....

--bornagainpenguin (who also thought the bit with the tree was excelent and expects to see that used as a basis for suddenly replacing Gabby --Malfoy will complain and they'll agree to remove her from the 'staff' game and replace her with Harry who hadn't really intended to play until Malfoy started acting the fool)

 

The ammount of hype this story is building up both here and on various Yahoo!Groups almost makes me wish I hadn't given up on reading Jeconais' writting.