Well, in ancient times (e.g., just after Hogwarts was built), keeping the Wizarding World hidden from the Muggle one was probably very simple. Confound some, obliviate others, there were wide stretches of land unexplored, and so on.

But by Harry's time, things should already be difficult. Traffic cameras and CCTV systems should be unaffected by magic, as (I guess) Notice-Me-Not charms must work directly in the brain, and magic is wonky with electricity, so probably a Notice-Me-Not wouldn't be sent over the wire to a cam operator. Also, videos can be, theoretically, copied and reproduced ad nauseum, so it would be easy to share a video of some strange people walking into a solid wall and disappearing.

Also, satellite GPS would turn "unplottable" homes very much plottable again, and by the time the Epilogue rolls on, it seems logical some of the mapping system works entirely inside machines, with no human iteration. And even if the spells could ward something like Hogwarts as a run-down castle, wouldn't Muggles find strange a run-down castle make their fine tuned paraphernalia act strangely? Wouldn't they simply triangulate a point of visual disturbance and investigate it?

But the Epilogue shows that the Wizarding World is still well hidden. Ron just had his driving test, but we could assume it was just something Hermione bullyed him into doing, and not a signal of wizards integrating into the Muggle World.

So, how are they still hiding? Maybe the DoM is always a step ahead Muggle Science, and can hid their world faster than we could discover it? Maybe the Obliviating Squadron has a bigger budget? Maybe wizards are slowly integrating in this strange non-magical world? Still, dragons can be hard to hide.

And finally, WHY wizards still are hidden? Why not simply take everything and go underground, or Fidelius a lot of safe places and move around them exclusively by Floo and Apparition? Wizards clearly know nothing about the Muggle World, so why continue to threaten with exposure when they can simply completely sever their ties with muggles, grab the muggleborn just out their parents womb and run? Always made no sense to me all this cloak and dagger stuff...

 

You're assuming magic doesn't work on technology, which we have no evidence for. Why shouldn't a notice-me-not charm work through a camera? You're assuming it works with the brain somehow, but why can't it 'simply work'?

Magic is bullshit, it doesn't have to play by any rules except it's own, and the HP rules of magic were never defined very well, which is one of the things that makes it such a great sandbox.

Furthermore, Fudge met with the PM, so even if you are right, maybe the government in Harry Potter has a MiB department to deal with these very issues.

 

Well, I don't know about all that. I could see that magic could cause issues with CCTV even with people watching through -- or that CCTV or other cameras can't "notice" things either. Now if they didn't use Notice-Me-Not charms, someone going through a wall would certainly be noticeable.

As for unplottable stuff, that's a bit unclear in canon, however it seems that it means it CANNOT BE PLOTTED. If a person can't draw it on a map why could a machine?

The rest of your stuff, underground or whatever, seems like an idea for a story you could write.

 

If we're looking for an excuse for magic like notice-me-not charms to work trough cameras then perhaps it could be that the magic affects the area, or thing, it is cast upon, so the photo just translates that.

As for why the wizards haven't just set up a separate society in a separate location, I would just guess that it hasn't been worth the work, or perhaps that there are diplomatic reasons between wizards of different countries, and their gouvernments.

 

While I can agree with you, I think most of this Discussion forum would be moot if we just explained everything with "just because". Also, in GoF we heard that Muggles approaching the World Cup site would suddenly remember other things to do. Muggle Repelling Wards, if I'm not mistaken. I always assumed Notice-Me-Not would work similarly. Also, what about Heat Cameras? Or Nightvision? Would the Notice Me Not hide them from them too?

About the MiB department, that's true, it's the Obliviator Squad. We heard about them in the books.

Finally, we have evidence of magic not working properly with technology:

We can safely assume electricity works around magic, or else everybody's brain would stop functioning (making it harder for Snape to teach them potions, but not so much), but electronics seems to stop working properly. In that same book, Hermione discourages Harry from thinking about using scuba diving gear at the lake Task, probably for the same reasons. Mr. Weasley enchants a quite old car, probably mostly mechanical, but what if someone spelled a computer? Wouldn't it become wonky?

Because a person and a machine are fundamentally different? When using the Fidelius, the entire building disappears from view, and you can't remember where it was. Personally, I think the unplottable charm would work befuddling your spacial awareness and making it difficult to recall landmarks. You know when you are certain that the place you are looking for is around that corner, but you mixed it up and it is another block away? Something like that. You would be confused and couldn't remember if Hogwarts is near that cliff, or the other, of maybe at that side of the mountains...

I think the Fidelius works like that, but I'm not sure about a Notice-me-not, or else it would probably need too much power.

You are right! It would be a nightmare...

 

OP, to me, it seems like you're already on the science > magic train. Next you'll be asking why no one shot Voldemort with a gun.

Unplottable locations don't just disappear from the map, they're also magically concealed from sight. It's global, world-wide magic that just fucks with the brains of muggles. It doesn't matter that a camera/satellite/whatever is involved, a muggle will still be under the magic's effect. If a muggle took a picture of Hogwarts (in the miracle that they got that far), a wizard might see the real Hogwarts, while a muggle probably would just see a run-down castle. This is magic, it just works like that. Whatever satellites would do, muggles would still have to use their eyes and brains to interpret the results, and magic would screw with that.

Why would you go underground? Like why? What you're doing works. The Statute hasn't been breached. Why would you dig underground like a filthy goblin? You have magic, you're superior to muggles, you use magic to live in peace from them. That's the situation. Fidelius is a rare, difficult and dangerous spell. It's a last resort kind of a deal. Not status quo.

You're thinking like the muggles are on top and about to discover the wizards. That's not how your average wizard sees things. You don't feel pressured or threatened by muggles at all, they're curiosities at best. You just don't worry about this stuff. Why should they worry about hiding and severing all contact when they've successfully hidden this way for several centuries and there has never been a major problem that we know of? Wizards are confident in their superiority and in their magic. They don't acknowledge or truly understand technology. I'm not looking to make this into a magic vs technology debate, we've had enough of those, but that's just the way it is.

The short answer to the "how are they still hiding" question is that the magical methods they use to hide just completely trump any technology we currently have and you just have to accept that. Stop thinking like a muggle and that technology can easily see through magic.

 

Notice-me-nots are fanon. You're talking about the muggle repelling charm.

 

Yeah, you should try to see it through the average wizard's eyes. For them, magic > muggle machines, so your whole argument goes down because they think there is nothing to fear. Perhaps the DoM is pulling the strings from the shadows, working on better muggle repelling charms and all that, and even if they were to be found, it's quite possible that drastic measures would be taken. Also, I get the impression that you seriously underestimate the magicals. The sheer damage a single wizard could do with apparition, a cloak of invisibility and a few Imperios is baffling, or if you want to take another route, a wizard starting a business in the muggle world (suspect the eccentric billionaires).

Seriously, if the magical world mobilized itself for a takeover of the muggle world, it's possible that they could actually succeed by using muggle governors as puppets under mental control and other nasty stuff. Why should they, though? Muggles seem pretty uninteresting for them, or if you once again take another route...they already did. (unfortunately, that idea makes as much sense as Manipulative!Dumbledore, so...nope)

 

While it may seem like that, I never thought technology is superior to magic. In fact, canon may be interpreted as science is at the opposite spectrum of magic, they both being powerful, but limited. I do understand what you are saying, though.

Great point, I can live with that.

The whole idea for this topic rolled from rereading GoF and thinking about the dragon reserve and the lake. The magical world kind of become corralled in tiny "islands" of magic, the ones we know in Britan are: Hogwarts, Diagon Alley, the Ministry, and the pureblood lands. Maybe a forest or settlement here and there, but seems awfully small. From the purebloods, we kind of get most have one or two children (probably to avoid splitting the fortune too much after death), but if happens to be a muggleborn boom or even some heavy hanky-panky pos-Battle commemoration, this world would be a little too restrictive and seems hard to expand. Also, wizards travel around this world almost always by immediate travel (Apparition, Floo, Portkey), and sometimes by long travel (the Knight Bus), so a pureblood wizard like Neville would spend his whole life inside this tiny little world, while most magical beasts probably aren't able to survive in the wild anymore.

Fanon sometimes precede Canon in my head, sorry! \o\

Huum, I always had doubts about pop stars (Lady Gaga's last name is Lovegood, I'm certain), but I'll add "billionares" to my list of potential wizards, thank you! I always thought the magical world and the muggle world are pretty much balanced war-power wise, as, like we saw in the Battle of Hogwarts, wizarding war is pretty much sparring, there are no mention of weapons of mass destruction, or the spell equivalent of a machine gun. Magic wars always end by magical exhaustion, lack of counter spell, physical exhaustion or, in Harry's case, ancient magicks allied to heavy handed Deus ex Magica. I refrain to start a discussion about Muggles X Wizards in terms of war, but to keep the topic on...topic, magic and technology seem to balance out pretty good.

And about Manipulative!WizardingGovernment, it would be really cool... Maybe that's what Arthur Weasley does all the time..... He just receives wall sockets and old cars as payment... Huuum...

 

Arthur Weasley, the true puppet master behind everything...sounds like a crack fic, but I like it! I wouldn't mind if someone started a Wizards vs Muggles War thread, but let's keep the topic on topic then haha

Forging the Sword (great fic btw) mentioned this issue. If I remember correctly, Ron said that wizards would just hide even harder, and I think he nailed it. If push came to shove though, I could see them kidnapping the muggleborns while they were young so they could avoid drawing the muggles' attention in a not so distant future, as both 'worlds' would finally become entirely separate socities because of fear of a possible clash.

 

I always thought of things like that as magic is used to hide things from people, in a way technology bypasses that because it's not a person but a tool. Like...let's use the fanon Notice-Me-Not charm in this case. You cast it on yourself and no one notices you as that's what the spell does, but if someone takes a picture or a video and you're in it people are going to wonder what's up. However I can imagine that there are limits to things.

As for the Fidelius, I agree that it does what it does in that it makes a place unplotable for people. However, would it work if someone wrote the address and/or the people who live their before that happened? Considering that Voldemort couldn't find it and had to rely on Wormtail it seems that some serious work was done to remove the address before or after the Fidelius was cast or the spell does that in some way. In which case would like storing the address via a .txt file on a computer work as well or would it not?

I've thought of the Fidelius as one of the high tier spells, the kind that screw around with ideas and concepts. Maybe not to that level, as it's not an idea or concept but a location, but something close. That kind of thing is pretty goddamn powerful.

 

File not found.

A fatal exception occurred. Hope you had backup... oh, the backup file is corrupted? Tragic.

I find it amusing to think that a power that can force people to forget their family members might have any difficulties in disrupting little magnets.

 

I was actually thinking more of a conspiracy theory inspired secret muggle government division dedicated to wiping out evidence of magic on their end. Tracking down who the Obliviator squad needs to flashy-thing, suppressing news and home videos, making sure any public reports get dismissed as tabloid rambling.

"Oh, you have a video of strange people disappearing into a wall? Nice editing job, I'm sure your parents are proud. What do you mean it's not edited? That's clearly a jump cut, look- you can see the frames."

 

For people to start wondering what's up, you'd pretty much have to have your wand out and casting spells in a place where you could be recorded, which is why casting magic in muggle areas is forbidden. In fact, casting magic where muggles can see is one of the core things forbidden by the Statute of Secrecy. If you're just dressed strangely or talking about strange things, "he's a wizard!" isn't what most peope would think, especially since muggles don't believe in magic. And then you have the Obliviators to fix things.

As a wizard, you live in the wizarding world. Most of them don't run into muggles at all. And if you're a muggleborn or raised in the muggle world, you're aware of technology and the Statute, so you won't act like a complete retard.

You don't understand how the Fidelius works. It doesn't matter that there are pre-existing records. It doesn't matter if people are right at the edge of the property, looking towards you. You cannot see through the hiding magic unless you know the secret. It's just kind absolute.

 

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The limitation to magic is in my opinion the limitation of imagination.

Making matter dissapear, travel time and splitting souls does seem like incredible stuff from our point of view right?

 

If it was so simple stuff transfiguration wouldn't have so many rules. Magic does have its limitations in canon, the whole process is more complex than a simple exercise of imagination...or the kids waste seven years of their lives in doing useless homeworks and all that.

 

Magical exhaustion doesn't exist in Harry Potter, its purely a fanfic concept.

And people really see the forget this a lot but...

"Militarily" Muggles lose before a fight even begins. The Wizarding world can use apparition to take out every world leader, they can infiltrate any organization with ease (Shacklebolt), if they use the Imperius they're essentially unstoppable, etc etc etc.

But more to the point, I don't understand how anyone could get the Statue of Secrecy is in any way not being upheld to the fullest. In the series, interactions with muggles by wizards are treated as amusing curiosities, not as something they have to hide from. This tone and attitude is for a very good reason - the Statute is just that secure. Don't treat wizards as incompetent or idiotic like so many fanons do, they aren't just super arrogant or unaware. If the canon Wizarding world had any chance in hell of being discovered on a wide scale, no matter how slight, the attitude would be much more serious.

 

I'd like to offer a quote from the first book:

So... the MoM has a primary job to hide magic from Muggles. Just saying.