Untransfiguration is said to be an advanced and difficult field, which students don't learn until 5th year. If it was just a Finite Incantatum, it would not be so difficult.

Also, there is the Dumbledore quote I posted on the previous page, where he said that the only way for a person who has been transfigured in to an animal to be returned to human form is for them to be transfigured back.

Blazzano: I would agree with the majority of what you say, in spirit. I do, however, have a semantic problem in that I wouldn't call it "magical properties" but rather something like "magical memory" ("magic leaves traces" - i.e. by looking at the present, we can determine the past). The reason for this is that a property should have some effect. E.g. A candle with a levitation charm has a magical property (the candle is physically unchanged). That magical property is levitation. In this case the proposed magical property doesn't seem to do anything at all, except when Untransfiguration is done.

I do have a problem with your #4, which is that Untransfiguration is meant to be difficult.

Sure. Just break through the 1000 years of magical protections on the place first. (Casting a spell over the entirety of Hogwarts isn't impossible. Flitwick casts a multitude of spells over the entire grounds casually, just sticking his wand out of the window.)

It's unclear how much of Transfiguration has a spell for each transformation and how much is a single process that can be applied to different things.

 

To be fair, Taure, the wards at Hogwarts don't seem to do diddly-shit. They don't stop a single threat that we see in canon at all.

 

Well, no one turned it in to a duck.

That's a start.

 

If I ever write a piece of fanfiction to the point where the main character gets to Hogwarts, I'll have them try to turn it into a duck.

 

By your own logic, Taure, that's only because nobody has yet figured out they can.

It also applies to fanfic writers.

b0b3rt, get to it.

 

Yeah, I'm not too picky about the terminology in this case. I was thinking about physical properties in the real world, some of which aren't really apparent until you apply some sort of force or energy into the object...but it's always a bit iffy to try to make analogues between magic and science.

Ah, I'd forgotten that it wasn't mentioned until fairly late in the series - I had assumed that the students learned to untransfigure as they went along learning new transfigurations.

Clearly it's not "trivially easy," then - perhaps it'd be better to say that untransfiguration is merely an accessible vulnerability, to someone with above average but not exceptional skill.

 

Untransfiguration is difficult for me to accept without some sort of "magic leaves traces" explanation. Otherwise, I just can't understand how transfiguring a ferret back to Draco Malfoy is possible. Or maybe it is possible, and whether the transfigured Draco actually acts like Draco is just dependent on the soul that's hanging around. The problem I have with this is that then it wouldn't necessarily be Draco's exact body (unless you can just intend to transfigure something and have magic take care of the details).

And then there are things like Canary Creams. Fucking Canary Creams, how do they work?

 

They obviously work on the principle that Transfigurations are temporary (hint hint).

 

EDIT: As Wordhammer said Canary Creams are likely potion based. But if they aren't then Canary Creams clearly have some sort of spell incorporated to Transfigure the person, and logically they could just as easily have the spell to Untransfigure the person incorporated with a time delay.

They in no way require Transfiguration to be temporary.

 

I have no idea of the debate so far, I just came into this thread... But anyway I would have thought at least some transfigurations should be temporary... Considering the Weasleys haven't conjured or transfigured a new house yet.

Or gold conjuring/transfiguration. >_> Everybody could be rich if it was all permanent.

 

Canary Creams are potions-based transmutions, which are different than spellwork. Consumables are treated as cheaper magic, as they aren't permanent. Also, I doubt Neville believed he was a giant canary at the time.

Unless he's into that sort of thing...

 

While your point makes sense, wordhammer, nothing in canon indicates that there is a potion to fully transform a human into an animal's body. And pretending that the twins are smart enough by fifth year to create that sort of potion... Well, I suppose it's possible, but for example polyjuice takes a month to brew. It's actually easier for me to believe that the creams are enchanted to transfigure the eater.

 

1) We've seen from Hermione's accident with the polyjuice potion that human-animal transformations via potion are possible, it's just that with polyjuice the effects are accidental and incomplete.

2) If Hermione was able to brew a supposedly NEWT level potion in her second year, the twins are able to in their fourth. It doesn't take a genius to follow instructions (as was aptly demonstrated by Harry in sixth year), and we know that the twins had put a lot of effort into making their products.

3) Could be either, magic has almost no limits when it comes to what you can and can't transfigure.

 

It's NEWT-level for one person to brew because of nasty side-effects, rare ingredients that require exact timing in their harvesting, and a month of commitment to make. They stole the ingredients from Snape, split the task between the three of them, and ran smack back into one of those side-effects and Hermione required medical attention to fix.

Considering that the vast majority of the potions taught can be brewed during an hour or so class and usually get screwed up at least one per class, it's no wonder that they save the long-term, rare-ingredient, nasty-side-effects one until NEWT level. It's quite easy to posit that the actual difficulty level has nothing to do with it.

And if it is transfiguration, why didn't Neville think he was a bird during it, assuming it's not just a plot hole?

 

I think, knowing JKR, it's always safer to assume it's a plot hole and go with whatever you want the universe to look like more.

 

Er... they did.

We're told that their house has had numerous expansions build on to it and only stays up because of magic.

 

It's true that they did, but then it's equally true that they suck at it.

 

Well, no one turned it in to a duck.

That's a start.

 

Has anyone ever noticed that DLP make the same 4 threads over and over?

 

Slash, transfiguration, minimal government and tits?