This should probably go in the Fanfiction Challenges folder, but I think we'd all like to keep that place for challenges only, so I'm posting it here hoping some of the people who submit challenges will see it...

Code:

An IDEA is Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix engage in a time war
to prevent Voldemort from retroactively winning the war which over a series
of battles [URL="http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=5032"]eventually creates the JKR timeline[/URL].

Code:

A CONCEPT is Harry Potter goes back in time to fight Voldemort
and stuff happens.

Does everyone see the difference between the two? Hint: One one them actually has a plot.

--bornagainpenguin

 

You seem to be quibbling over verbiage that there will doubtfully ever be a consensus on.

To me, idea and concept are nearly interchangeable. Your first example, the "idea", would probably count as a small plot bunny for me. That is a plot bunny for a fic, not necessarily the plot bunny.

Some people only consider the overriding theme as the plot bunny for a fic, as if there's always only one distinct one for each fic. I consider just about any sort of idea/concept fleshed out and included to be a plot bunny.

 

True enough. I'm actually going by some of what was hashed out in another forum I used to be an active member on, where we had a section for challenges (that we called Fanfic Ideas) and people were getting flamed for posting stuff like:

Code:

What if Ranma somehow joined Star Trek?

And considered that to be enough of an Idea that it didn't need to be fleshed out at all...

I really wish I could find the old thread we had on that over there. We went through three different versions of foruming software before settling on what they use now and some of those threads have been lost forever to time. They did a better job of explaining things than I can. The only reason I brought it up is because like I said, I noticed people getting flamed and I was hoping to put up a thread where they could understand why their (my) great Idea for a fic wasn't being seen for the genius it so obviously is...


--bornagainpenguin

 

I think it’s a good idea to have a discussion on this because perhaps it is not too clear what people expect from a post in the ‘Challenges’ section. Instead of using BAP’s terms of ‘idea’ and ‘concept’ I will try to address the problem from a different angle, which is what should there be in a challenge post.

Plot vs. Plot device​

A plot is the basic skeleton of a story. A series of events, and situations leading up to, including, and the aftermath of the main Event of the story would be a complete story line.

The main event or happening of the story can be and usually is conflict, so the plot should have something which says what the conflict/main event of the story is, so we know Why? the story is being told.

The ‘WHY’ forms the crux of the Plot.

The ‘What Happens?’ Is the skeleton that supports and forms the story line.

When we come to ‘How’ everything happens is where we see plot devices. Plot devices are used to move the story along the path taken to whatever resolution the story has; by itself the plot device is not the story.

For example: What if Harry became a vampire? (I’m not picking on anyone, this is just a very popular idea)

Ordinarily this would be enough for a plot bunny, but seeing as how much fanfic we have all read we need more. To me this is just a plot device, it is not plot. Because it does not tell you the conflict, the change in canon story line, and especially in what way this plot bunny affects the ‘How’ of the story.

All it does is give the main character supposedly badass powers, supposedly an internal conflict but not necessarily, perhaps an inclination towards the dark but not necessarily, maybe super sex glamor which has witches from all area codes clamoring to him but not necessarily, a back bone but not necessarily, after all he could be emo vamp. You see how we know next to nothing?

For that plot bunny to be a true plot it should lay out some brief structure of how the canon story line changes, how does it if at all change the conflict, why is this plot device more compelling than others which may give Harry power, backbone etc to do all he does in the books in a better way. By now we have read enough fanfics that a complete rehash of canon with one change is not enough.

So perhaps following could be a loose format for challenges that are posted:

1.Story line; What happened? How it changes the situation in canon? What
are the new conflicts and challengers if any.

2.What elements are involved in the story? Eg. other magical races, discovery
of ancient magic, dimensions, internal conflict, independence, seduction to
the dark etc.

3.Preferred Plot devices, obviously this ties in heavily with the above two, but
is not enough on its own. E.g. Hagrid was Harry’s biological father,it's just an example.

It’s not necessary that it be in this order but it should include the some semblance of a story structure and then include any plot device. A complete story line would obviously take away the ‘challenge’ aspect.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. Should be something that can be discussed and ironed out.

 

I'm not sure a rigid structure on exactly what should be required of a "challenge" is going to be a good thing.

Simply because I've seen some where people will issue extremely detailed challenges with specifics on what is or isn't allowed. And the majority of the plot is predetermined by the challenge. Usually these aren't challenges for the sake of the authors taking them up, but rather the challenge issuer wants to see specific things. Like a certain ship, or a certain character twisted either towards "good" or "evil" (Rules like 'absolutely no redeemed!Draco').

In those cases they're issuing challenges for self-serving purposes and pretty much want to read a certain type of story, just they are too lazy to put in the effort to write it themselves. (Look for people naming the challenges after themselves rather than something useful like the point of the challenge.)

On the other hand, some people issue challenges like 'what if Ron Weasley was the Boy-Who-Lived?' and that's about the extent of their input. That's not a challenge. It's a passing thought someone happened to type rather than expend any mental effort to flesh out into some semblance of a challenge.

But when it comes to people taking up a challenge, too little information is sometimes the most attractive to an aspiring author with some ideas of their own. Others may want to have the complete story outline handed to them on a silver platter rather than try and decide just who is going to be sharing Harry's bed, or make any of the big decisions themselves.

I know for me, I prefer a middle ground. But others may like excessive amounts of specifics. It's all a matter of taste and trying to establish a rigid structure seems counter-productive.

Perhaps require more than one or two sentences, but a limit of 350 words for a challenge. (If you're wondering 350 is more than this response.) Dunno.

 

I agree that a rigid structure would probably take away from challenges being put up and taken up, and thats why I said that the entire story line should not be given because that takes away from the point of a challenge.

But my main thrust is that there should be two components to a proposal,one a general story idea and any plot device like Harry becomes a natural telekinetic should be second.

The point is like you said: "What if Ron Weasley was the boy-who-lived?" is just a thought, not enough for a challenge or anything. The question that immediately comes after that suggestion is "...and then what?"

I think there should be something that attempts to answer the latter part. Enough so that we have something compellingly interesting about the story besides that one thing.

I suppose quantifying or creating a challenge format might not be the best idea but then how do you convince people to think something through before posting it in the challenge section.

Maybe that can be solved like other things on this site which are done so by leading by example.

 

Whoa! nonjon, that may be applicable outside here, where you see stuff like that all the time, but here it's in the rules to name challenges after yourself!

Now that said, I'm glad to see some discussion on this subject, which is exactly what I'd hoped for when I made the thread. Not to set myself up as the be-all of what is right in a challenge or fic Idea\Plot discussions, but to see some discussion on what is the DLP.net way of going about them...

--bornagainpenguin

 

Yeah I didn't mean to imply anything about the format for posting challenges on this forum, but for example the "WIKTT" challlenge, or "When I Kissed the Teacher" challenge has a good name. (By the way, if you see these, run, as a fast you can. Hermione/Snape. That's as intriguing a pairing as poop/razor blades). Or an "Altered Beast Challenge" I like better than "Nonjon's Challenge."

To avoid too much repetition, I think the rules for posting in that section are justified. But for example, HappyCamper Challenge #1 I'd call "Mad Scientist Harry" Challenge rather than to refer to it as 'HappyCamper's Challenge'.

 

lulz, looking through this, I laugh at how much applies to my challenges. (Both good and bad) Now I feel all picked on.

However I do feel that when a person makes a challenge, they are free to put whatever restrictions they wish. However if they wish for someone to take up the challenge, all must remember that you need to leave the author some room to write on their own. (Which I of course try to do in my own challenges)

It is also better most of the times to give too much information then too little, as this makes it easier for the author to mold in their ideas. This is not always the case, and if you are a really skilled author you probably don't like it as much, but to each their own.

 

Just to steal nonjon's challenge name for a moment, would it work to title it something like HappyCamper's 'Mad Scientist Harry' Challenge? or is that to long for a thread title?

 

Err... that's against the rules of the Challenge section (that BAP so helpfully quoted).

I was referring to challenges in general and making no statements on how they should be structured in posts on this particular forum.

Given the rules though I'd think "HappyCamper's Challenges #1: Mad Scientist Harry" would be allowed and make me far more likely to click on it than simply "HappyCamper's Challenges #1".

 

Bah! My name screams respect and attention, you would of course click on it when it says 'Void Sorcerer's Challenge #' I mean, it is just a fact of life.

But apart from that, names really can add to it I guess, but if you are really looking for a good challenge, you probably aren't going to bother with the name very much. I think that putting the name of the writer in the title is good as I expect great ideas from certain authors. And I am more likely to read the challenge if it is by one of them.

Yes I check most of everyones challenges in thread, and choose not to respond to quite a few of them as they are not my cup of tea, but I still look. I do however respond to ones that should be shot down or praised!

Meh, I must be off to think of my latest challenge to post!

-Void