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I'm sick of Wandless Magic

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Burn, Dec 9, 2006.

  1. Burn

    Burn Second Year

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    Damn

    I spent about ten minutes typing a response, and when I went to post it DLP told me I wasn't logged in. So I logged in like it told me to, assuming it had saved my response. When I hit enter, it took me to a white page. My response was gone. The key here is that I was logged in at the time I was writing the response. Oh well. I gues that's because I am using Safari under "Private Browsing", which doesn't save any cookies or cache anything. I'll just have to stop doing that.

    Anyway, the gist of what I had out was that I think that Tom did not some how empower his vocal chords, which may be possible, but instead sent out a wave of magic that basically said one thing: tell me the truth (or whatever it is he said; I haven't read the books in a while). I also believe Harry's accidental magic to be like sending out a wave of magic: he turned his teacher's hair blue. Why not red or green? Why not do something else? I think that Harry instinctively (read: subconsciously) sent out a wave of magic that said "protect me" or "Distract them" or whatever. Like I said, its been a while since I read the books.

    The biggest issue with what I think is that how does this explain Neville's bouncing or Harry's moving to the roof? It really doesn't. I originally intended this thread to talk about alternatives to wandless magic in fanfiction, seeing as how wandless magic is among the top two cliché's I see when I read fanfiction. Some of it is doen well. Others leave me wondering whether one person is behind all of the bad fanfiction on FF.net.

    Also, as to Lupin's blue flame: did he actually say the spell for the bluebell flames? In my first post I said that I think wandless magic would be able to manipulate the environment to create things like fire. If the magic could create the fire by forcing atoms in the air to doe something (rub together painfully, blow up, etc.) could it not then keep the fire going by feeding it magic. Also, it would be possible for the fire to have special properties due to its magic origins and fuel. At least, so I assume.

    Feel free to demolish my argument. This is all just theory and ideals that anyone can use in their stories should they choose to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2006
  2. Thalarian

    Thalarian Seventh Year

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    So I admit to using wandless magic freely. Not out of any great disrespect to the wand, but I personally feel like limiting myself when it comes to that regard. But I can see where wandless magic gets entirely out of control. There are some stories that just ditch the wand entirely and have Harry becoming Super!Harry that can do anything without a wand.

    I've tried representing a different form of wandless. While spells and such can still be used, the wand was merely a 'seat' for the magic already inside of wizard's body. Core's used in a wand were properly synchronized to reflect and react with a wizard's own internal magical capabilities. Thus the wand would 'siphon' what magic the wizard was focusing, and use it to cast said spell.

    I've had Harry in Queens casting plenty of wandless, but when he lost his wand I pointed out that he could no longer cast spells such as his Patronus and possibly several others.

    I think idea of wandless magic is all in the presentation given. If an author just has Harry suddenly drop his wand over the course of a summer and start casting Auror level spells with the flick of a pinky, yeah, it can get tedious and cliche. But if an author takes the time to explain certain feature's about their wandless idea, and really gives that aspect of the story some depth and substance, it could create some amazing opportunities for the author to present his/her readers.

    JKR has painted that magic is extremely emotion based. That's shown in OoTP when Harry casts his first 'Crucio' and Bellatrix shrugs it off because his hate isn't nearly what it should be. If a wizard becomes so emotionally driven (Battle and other such things can bring out these types of feelings) then it probably isn't over the top to see someone cast a spell without the use of their wand.

    The idea of wandless is a bit more open to me and having never really watched DBZ , I can't compare wandless magic to that type of action. While Harry/Others throw spells around without the use of their wands, I don't always see them tearing out mountains and destroying cities and worlds with one simple blast. Wandless magic tends to be dumbed down in many of the better stories out there.

    Once again I guess I'm falling back on the thought that wandless is perfectly acceptable, so long as it's presented in a fashion that can make it believable and faulty in places for whatever story is being read.
     
  3. Yarrgh!

    Yarrgh! Pirate King

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    I dunno...Canon has examples of wandless magic that seem quite powerful. Like Quirrel, snapping his fingers and conuring ropes. Or Dumbledore, clapping his hands to make tons of food appear, or to light all the candles, or something.

    Personally, I use wandless magic liberally, but to a small extent in comparison with many Super!Harry fics. It seems like if you can reach the point where you can silently cast complicated spells, then you can reach the point, to some degree, where you can wandlessly cast them.

    By this I refer to things like the cutting curse, or the levitation charm, etc, not anything more powerful like 'reducto' or the Patronus or anything. Basically, I agree with Thal.

    On the part about focus: I see complicated magic involving a lot of focus, so I guess that as long as you're used to casting a particular spell/have a good feel for magic, you can use your wild, wandless magic to accomplish some of the less complicated stuff.
     
  4. Burn

    Burn Second Year

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    Dumbledore Doesn't Conjure that Food.

    The clapping is merely a signal given to the house elves to transport the food to the tables. I doubt even Dumbledore could make that much food, which, according to Harry, tastes good, and lasts for a long time. This is assuming that conjuring in HP isn't permanent unless intended to. Or it could be like in Sabrina the Teenage Witch, for anyone who remembers that show, where conjured things are not only permanent, but real, i.e. conjured food is real, not just shaped matter. This is all just assumption, of course.
     
  5. Stalicon

    Stalicon High Inquisitor

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    I skipped a bit as I'm short on time right now but heres my theory.

    In cannon all acidental magic is charms, blue hair, vanishing, accio...ect so Mabey it only works for a specific type of magic.

    Also, the reasoning that they can't cast spells wandlessly without the incantation/wand is wrong, they may think the incantation/wand is needed but its not, they like many before me have said, assume it is so.

    But then why doesn't it work when they mess up? Simple. The brain records all it sees, hears, smells, tastes, and feels. It stores this information for later use. Now, they herd the spell said correctly yes? And they saw the effect it had most likely as well or are told it is so.

    Not seeing where this is going yet? Ok let me spell it out for you. The spell doesn't work because your brain does know what the real incatation is, even if you fuck it up believing its right.

    Also, the reason it has adverse effects when you fuck said spell up is because you expect something to go wrong if you do it incorrectly. The words have power yes, but only because you give them power. Same goes for the wand.

    But, but what about all that shit about having to think the spell!!!

    Ah, you've fallen into a trap my freind. This is exactly as I just said. The only reason you need the words is because you think you do. Remeber, no matter how fancy words are, they're just that, words.

    We use words to express yourself, our feelings and emotions. Which it seems magic is drived from. This also explains why you need to feel a certain way to use Crucio.

    You feel like that rock would be better as a goldfish? [insert magic words] Poof! Just like you wanted it.

    Like getting off on torture? Crucio now you can all you want.

    This rather long-winded explanation has been brought to you by:

    Driving Your Girlfriends Car.

    Picture

    - 'You may lose your dignity, but you sure save a lot on car insurance.


    And...

    The Church of Sam.



    Edit: I just realized how big that pic was, >_> Fixed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2006
  6. Necrule Paen

    Necrule Paen DLP Elite DLP Supporter

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    I am going to disagree somewhat.

    Incantations and will appear to be interchangeable somewhat.

    There are some spells that you can say the words without really thinking what you want to accomplish and it happens. The Stunning Spell is a good example of one that you can use reflexively, that you can say the words and cast it without even realizing why you casted it until after the fact. Conversely, you could also cast the same spells as before wordlessly with only a little bit more effort. In these cases I believe as others have said, that it is just habitual and its hard to break the habit.

    However, in the cases of the Unforgivables, the Patronus, and transfiguration this is not really the case. This because beyond the incantation there needs some added cognition involved. Incantations and will are not completely interchangeable.

    You may ask why I have included transfiguration, this is because in transfiguration you can't just say the words and get your desired result but you have to think about what you want it to look like. You can't just conjure a chair because you have thousands of ways a chair can look like. This does not mean that silent casting of transfiguration spells is impossible indeed Dumbledore has done it several times including during Harry's trial. However, I would bet that when Dumbledore needs a chair or a sleeping bag he will always has a particular look in mind and so conjuring that item to his mind can only mean one look and so he can cast the spell wordlessly. However, if he were to enter a contest where he had to make as many different chairs as possible in so many minutes he would have to resort to saying the incantation as he racks his brain for new designs.

    For a more practical situation take the unforgivables. Now the Killing and Cruciatius curses could in theory be cast silently because hatred and the will to kill or torture are nearly symnologous. However in the case of the Imperius, you already have to contend with subdueing anothers will and imparting an individual command, the extra strain of doing it wordlessly is not worth the risk.

    The Patronus is more like the Imperius in that searching for the right happy memory and casting the charm are a little counterinituitive of one another. You could keep a particular memory in mind and cast it like for transfiguration but the Patronus is not one size fits all, a memory strong enough to drive off one Dementor may not even be able to form against say ten. Thus, you are scrambling for a stronger memory and really who gives a shit if the Dementors know you are going to cast it a split second before as long as it actually works.

    Therefore, no wizard can go through life with silent casting alone and be successful at it.

    The real question however is if wand movements and wandless casting are interchangeable. I don't think so.

    My reason is because I don't think every spell uses wand movement to begin with. For example, I don't think lumos uses any. One reason is because it is light which must be one of or the most simple spells in existance. That spell probably predates wand use or any kind of primitive foci. Another is that Harry was able to cast it without even holding his wand. No, I don't think this is something unique or random but the only way some wizards can find their wands in the middle of the night. Do I think lumos can be cast wandlessly? Absolutely. But only because it does not use wand movements.

    Therefore, I don't think Wingardium Leviosa can be cast wandlessly because wand movements are used. I am sure a different levitating spell doesn't use wand movements and so can be cast wandlessly. WL in my view is only taught because it shows students the importance of pronunciation and wand movements and was at their level. Otherwise, it is not a widely used spell because easier spells are available.

    The reason for my conclusion is that wands must be at times necessary or they would not have been adopted by the entire wizarding world and some magic must not require wands or people wouldn't know that intentional magic is even possible let alone try to improve upon their control and application. So, when wand movement is involved the wand is necessary and when not the wand isn't.
     
  7. Lucinda

    Lucinda First Year

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    Would it be comletely ridiculous to point out that some of the classes offered as electives sound like they would be mostly or completely wandless to begin with?
    - Divination seems to require no wand, even if you are actually looking at the cards/crystal/ball/tea leaves instead of just treating it as a creative writing class. Presumably there are other methods taught at higher years that still wouldn't require a wand. But divination/scrying isn't flashy or oriented towards combat use. Still, if you could get it right, just use your divination skills to figure out exactly where and when the best time to attack the enemy would be... Why not use divination for intelligence gathering?
    - Care of Magical Creatures: well, wands might be necesarry for some of what Hagrid brings in, but this doesn't say 'precision spell casting' to me. Of course, if you have a carefully tended and trained pair of hippogriffs, that might make your daring night-time attack a bit nastier.
    - Ancient Runes (and why isn't there 'Old Runes' or 'Modern Runes'?) - would this be how wards are made? How to fortify your dwelling from the bad guys who want to hurt you? How to break curses on ancient tombs to get the cool loot inside?
    - Arithmancy - must be more than just algebra for the wizarding mind. Is this spell design & analysis? Can you figure out how a spell does what it does and then how to devise a counter or defense for it? How to undo the effects of long-term alterations or marks?
    - Herbology probably not a wand-heavy class. Of course, it's magical gardening/botany and some of what goes into potions.

    Animagi and metamorphs apparently don't require their wands to change.

    My best reasonable guess is that spells of frequent use that aren't too demanding power-wise can eventually be done wandlessly, or with less of the incantation or gestures. Things you do all the time - like Molly Weasley's kitchen spells for stirring pots, washing dishes, adding a bit more sauce. Something that you've conjured a thousand times (Perhaps Dumbledore just conjures himself more lemondrops?) Lighting a candle, opening a door, turning out the lamp... Of course, that does raise some questions about just how/why Quirrel was so familiar with conjuring ropes... or was that Voldie conjuring through Quirrel?

    Please note that those aren't spells that cast the Unforgivables, they don't kill humans (you probably could do a 'swat the bug' spell wandlessly), they don't change the area drasticly. But they would make magical life a little more magical. And it would also serve to reflect what you do with your time - you cast what you cast frequently, not what looks the coolest or is the most impressive in a fight.
     
  8. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Divination - not a drop of magic being done.

    Care of Magical Creatures - Again, no magic except that in the creatures, appears in this class.

    Ancient Runes - As far as canon is contained, this is just learning ancient languages. The equivalent of us learning Latin. It's possible that runes are used in wards, but they don't appear to teach it up to that level in Hogwarts.

    Arithmancy - Arithmancy is (very roughly) the prediction of how events will turn out using numbers and assigning them to real life. For example, your name would have a number, as would everything else. As for spell creation - we see from HBP that is more language based and more of an art of finding the right words for a spell rather than a structured science of creation.

    Herbology - Again, theres not a drop of magic in this class, except for that in the plants.

    But despite me just arguing against that, there are canon examples of wandless magic that are far more obvious, so yeah, wandless magic in canon is possible. I'm currently sticking with my theory that it works in the same way as non-verbal magic.

    I think with your point about wandless magic being easier with repeated spells is probably correct, mostly because in canon we see that a spell gets easier the more you get used to performing it. But I don't think that this means a person's wandless magic is limited to those spells, just that they will find them easier.
     
  9. Link

    Link Order Member DLP Supporter

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    I believe Wandless magic would be theoretically possible, but limited to only a few uses; it would be telekinesis mainly.

    I say so because IF magic was real and could be channeled through the body, this would be kinda easy to do. It's within the brain's capabilities, especially if the user use hands as 'focus' (not really focus, but IF it's possible, it will decrease the intellectual amount of information the brain has to process).

    Shooting curses DBZ-like would be like shooting projectiles --> the amount of focus needed to 'push' the magical effect would be much much bigger than simple telekinesis.

    Of course, our brain's not capable of this kind of things, so it's pointless talking about that.

    Oh, and Harry Potter's canon is supposed to be a book where you forget about physics laws, logic, etc. In fact, the most important thing is that J.K.Rowling's magic isn't logic at all. Otherwise, Dumbledore would be Evil, Harry wouldn't go out with Ginny Wes-slut and Voldemort wouldn't be so dumb!
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2006
  10. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Erm...you do know we're talking Harry Potter right? Magic isn't real!

    There's no such thing as telekinesis in Harry Potter (canon), or channeling magic through the body.

    And you don't need to say that wandless magic is only theoretically possible - we've seen it in canon, as has been mentioned in the thread.
     
  11. k_writer

    k_writer Groundskeeper

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    Burn, your theory is pretty much the same as I am trying to use in one of my stories, only you've explained it much better.

    IMO the wand is the focus point, the vessel through which the magic is issued. Obviously Harry's magical powers are unique, and though it seems his aptitude is lacking, really he just needs to learn to use his differently than most other wizards.

    Hence wandless magic--IMO if he knew how to focus right, tap into it the right way, he could do whatever he wanted without the use of wand.....?

    Hmmm...I need to go think about this.
     
  12. Nexus

    Nexus Denarii Host

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    Actually wandless magic is quite a bit rampant in canon. I find that it has been decreed difficult in fanon by like-minded people like us who think that such magics shouldn't be so easy to attain, because is that were true than all computer users would be able to hack into system just like that.

    So realistically speaking wandless magic should be quite difficult and avaliable only to those who diligently pursue it's training or maybe someone who has a natural flair for and trains this gift accordingly.
     
  13. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Wandless magic isn't really that powerful anyway - sure, it can be useful, but not in a duel.

    If your opponent in a duel was good enough to disarm you, then they are good enough to beat you when you are doing the same spells wandless. And even if you use your wandless magic to summon your wand back, they are still better than you so still able to disarm you again.

    Wandless magic is only useful really in a captive situation when your wand has been taken away, or for parlour tricks.
     
  14. TheIllusiveOne

    TheIllusiveOne Raptured to Hell

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    There is no evidence to support that at all. We have no idea what the limitations on wandless magic are.

    Harry got angry and blew up his aunt in PoA, what if he lost his wand in a duel, and got even angrier, would it have a similar effect and allow him to win the duel? You can't know the answer to that, because it hasn't been explained in canon.
     
  15. CosmosGravitation

    CosmosGravitation Professor

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    I feel compelled to point out that this is false. Brain imaging has proven that humans use their entire brain.... or nearly so at least. We don't use our entire brain all at once, just like we don't use all our muscles in the body at the same time, but over the course of an entire day almost the entire brain is used. Among brain researcher's, this is an accepted fact.

    As for the topic of wandless magic, yes, in canon wandless magic is clearly possible. What makes wandless magic possible and what it entails is less clear. I usually get the feeling that JKR herself hasn't thought it through very thoroughly herself.
     
  16. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Wandless magic is normal magic done without a wand. That is its very definition. Therefore, it is limited by the the same limitations as normal spells, only that it does not need a wand.

    We're told later in canon that when Harry blew up his aunt that it was a normal spell (an engorgement charm), just one triggered unconsciously by Harry's emotions.

    If we take this fact and take it as the rule, every piece of accidental magic done is just a normal spell, even if the child does not know that spell, triggered by emotions rather than the words being said, which is made possible by those emotions as Thal put forward.
     
  17. Mordac

    Mordac Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    Actually, it's just an hypothesis, and a pretty bad one at that, given that your 'axiom', namely, that there is a canonical magical core from whence magic flows, is actually not axiomatic at all.
     
  18. Burn

    Burn Second Year

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    Losing Track?

    I believe people are losing track of the purpose of my orignial post: that wandless magic is overdone in fanfiction. Yes, there is support of wandless magic in canon. However, the extent to which this has been abused is what concerns me. I intended this post to be morel like a collection of ideas concerning wandless magic an the "magical core" that anyone can copy, use, and abuse to their own will.

    The DBZ -style wandless magic used in most Independent!Harry fanfics has caused me to consider another system. I am not saying there is NO magic done without a wand, merely that it would be nice to see not only better explanations for said magic, but also different forms for the magic.

    Yes, I agree my theory sucks. However, I am merely putting an idea out. It's rough and has no thought beyond its creation put into it. Also, I did not state that magic had to come from a core. Like I said, it is merely an idea. For all we can tell, magic just is, and wizards are somehow able to do it. For instance, we pretty much never see a time when someone is tired from using a large amount of magic in canon. Those who were tired had injuries, i.e. broken legs, Crucio exposure, etc. I myself do not belive in a magical core or center. I don't consider a magical core to be canon, merely an almost omnipresent idea used in fanfiction.

    I think the wandless use of things like the engorgement charm are fine. He did not intend to make her blow up, at least as far as we know. It was uncontrolled. Also, I don't consider things like the animagus ability to be like the wandless magic used in fanfic. It is wandless, and it is magic, but it is not like what I see daily. Instead, it is like forced self transfiguration, the activating of an inborn ability.

    As stated above, these are merely ideas. Use them, abuse them, even kill the thread. I just want to see some difference on FF.net, although perhaps I should just settle for mediocre crap written by the hordes of horny fangirls, no offence intended to anyone, and human copy-machines. This of course represents few, if any, people here.
     
  19. Oujou Akaash

    Oujou Akaash Unspeakable

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    When i think of magic, i don't think of just one thing like the wizards core. To me magic can be anything made up by people. To me magic is like a web with infinite strands of infinite possible theories put into them.

    In some fics it say when wizards or sorcerer wields magic they wield it around them instead of within them and still they get tired from using magic too much.

    Actually they do get tired when they uses magic. ie. when Harry used the patronus he fainted at least once because he was trying to learn a really powerful spell.

    When it comes to magical core however i have different beliefs on it. In my opinion (i have several opinions infact) i think wizards and witches don't have the innate ability that a house elf has when it comes to wandless magic so they use a wand.

    I do however believe that wands are nothing more than a tool created by humans to help them utalize and weave magic. However in harry potter canon everyone uses a magic wand or none at all because in my theory i think they got so use to magic they have a hard time controlling or more like bringing out there magic from there body with out there wand.

    To me magic can be anything however J.K put up her own system that is completly new with out much explanation other than a magic core or whatever.

    The point is magic is anything the author wants it to be. The viewers such as Burn read too much of harry potter and got sick of it so you need to stay away for awhile in order to get use to it again...or am i wrong.
     
  20. Burn

    Burn Second Year

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    The Fainting Thing

    I thought, and I very well may be wrong, that Harry fainted because of the effects of the boggart-dementor. I mean, yes the boggart wasn't as powerful as the actual dementor, but it still had similar effects. But I agree, magic is what the author makes it. Then again, I have only seen the third movie in that past two months and haven't read the book in at least a year.

    I agree, I have read way too much HP fanfic. So far, I have only read one story in the past three months. I check FF.net to see if any of the old stories I followed have been picked back up, and randomly check stories. This is where my ideas come from. I have just gotten sick of crappy writing, not HP in general. You're half write, Oujou, I have read too much. But I'm not some cynical old guy who gets pissed off at everything. It took about fifty stories with the same plot to really get the ideas in my head. I think I am just going to avoid FF.net for a month or two, maybe then this lull that appears to have formed at FF.net. Who knows, I'm open to suggestion.
     
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