You mean that world where you can get chucked into Azkaban so the current Administration can be seen 'doing something'? Or do you mean the world where the government has the ability to fire teachers on the basis of what equates to race/religion/etc, and will grossly injure both students and faculty to do so?

The HP wizarding world is hardly a haven for civil rights.

Assuming a 'finite' would work, there is no violation of rights to use one on every person entering a government building. You have to go through a metal detector and leave your bags at the station to go on a tour of the Parliament buildings, and I'm 100% sure they do something similar at the White House. Hardly a violation, mostly common fucking sense.

What nuisance? The fact that a couple of mall cop security guards might be a bit tired when they leave at the end of the day? Or that the Ministry might have the shell out a couple hundred galleons a week to employ them?

 

I stand by my earlier comment. If Finite (which is general spell-finishing spell, so to speak) is powerful enough to cancel out a fukken Imperius, then it must be powerful enough to disrupt the charmed/spelled objects a wizard carries with him. What about an old member of the Wizengamot who uses the magical version of a pacemaker? I don't think many people will agree to be subjected to a spell of such power on a routine basis. Charmed robes will unravel, charmed quills will stop working... you get the idea.

If the Finite spell has such power, it would've been banned and identified as dark magic by the MoM a long time ago. C'mon, in a magical society where magic takes care of all the household jobs to the national defense? How safe would a spell that can finish off other spells would be, in the hands of the general populace? Just about as much as a electricity-neutralizer to us muggles. The potential for abuse would be just too great.

 

'Finite' is too simple, in my opinion. Why? Read Mors' post.

Regarding the spells' use at the entrance to the Ministry, I agree that if it was that simple to remove from a person, there's no real danger. Just get citizens to consistantly cast the spell on one another. There's no threat from the spell anymore.

I'm more inclined to believe that only the person under the Imperius can escape from it, barring death of the caster. Though that makes it much more difficult to write, it sounds more accurate.

I agree. Also, if there was one, why was it not mentioned till now? I'm sure Barty Crouch Jr. mentioned that it was only possible that the one under the curse could throw off the curse. His story at the end of GoF corroborates that (occasionally overcoming the spell enough to take note of his surroundings properly, and eventually throwing it off completely), as far as I recall.

That's what I wanted. Cheers.

 

Thats probably not possible. You arent able to control to many peaple for to long. Only realy powerfull and skilled occlumence is able hold the curse over more than one target and only, if he concentrated enough (i.e. spaced out).

 

Aside from the crappy grammar and spelling, you are completely wrong. There is no canon evidence to suggest that you can't hold more than one person under the curse simultaneously. Occlumency, in canon, has no use beyond protecting the mind from legilimency.

In fact, the Imperius has been shown as able to connect caster to victim and then on to a second victim through the first (Malfoy on Rosmerta on Katie Bell in HBP), which is theoretically the same thing, given the nature of the curse.

Also, I'm still not sure if commands are given telepathically or verbally, anyone know the answer? And hypothetically, could a legilimens bypass that and project the commands straight into the mind?

Aekiel

 

The image I got from the defense class in GoF where Moody puts everyone under the curse is that commands are given telepathically.

Harry hears Barty!Moody's voice is his head telling him to jump and then he proceeds to resist it. The command from Barty!Moody isn't verbalized in the scene, so we can safely assume commands are given telepathically/nonverbally.

It would also reduce the stealth factor of the curse greatly if you had to verbalize the command. Say you are in a room with a bunch of people, and you want your victim to kill someone without giving yourself away. It wouldn't be too smart to verbalize a command in that kind of situation as it is highly probable that someone would overhear you give the order, thus revealing that you are the culprit behind the imperio'd victim, and thus the murder. Also it would mean you would have to be within hearing range of the victim for the command to work. This means that long distance commands are impossible, which again reduces the stealth factor of the curse because chances are you could be seen with the victim and be connected to any crimes the victim commits under the curse, which isn't too smart because the act of the Imperious itself is a life sentence in the presence of soul sucking demons. Too risky.

If you are a death eater, and you have someone high up in the ministry under the imperious, it would hardly be practical if you had to be in the victims presence anytime you want to give the victim a command. Not only does it increase the time lag between deciding to give a command and it actually being carried out (ie you can't have your victim react instantly to events in real-time), but you would be seen entering the ministry, your wand recorded, and someone would eventually connect you as the culprit. That is if it's even possible for you to enter the ministry at all, which would be extremely difficult for a wanted criminal to do unless they are highly skilled in glamours/illusions, at being an imposter (if you go the polyjuice route), or you have an invisibility cloak. It's just too impractical if you have to give verbal commands. It wouldn't be nearly as feared as it is in canon.

 

I'd think that's a possibility, nothing in canon says otherwise. However, in canon legilimency is only shown(I think) to be used to read other people's minds, and most examples of legilimency in canon is based on the read-other-people's-minds concept.

If it is possible to project commands directly into minds, there's a few major drawbacks in using it. The main one is the requirement of eye contact. Since legilimency requires eye contact, it's pretty much useless at what the imperius curse does - controlling people from a distance.

 

Wtf is all this "project commands"? o_o

I always got the vibe that you cast the curse, you and the victim's mind get connected, and your will gets done. All at a somewhat less-than-conscious level, and not involving language. I really don't think you need to spell the commands out, even in your mind. For example, if you want the victim to bow, he bows. Of course you may spell it out, but you don't need to. And for very complex commands, I suppose you'll have to.

But the main thing about the Imperius, I've always thought, is establishing a connection between the minds. When that's done, you don't really have to tell the victim what you want him to do, just think it. I mean, you don't have to tell yourself "raise the hand up", do you? Language is needed only for abstract thoughts and relaying them to other people. With a bloody mental connection in place, language should be mostly unnecessary. Feelings should go a long way.

I dunno if I'm the only one that feels this, but that Barty!Moody voice had always seemed to have been generated by Harry's own mind, to me. It was as if his mind was receiving instructions from Moody and couldn't decide how the fuck to interpret it, so it generated a sensory input of Moody's voice.

 

So by that logic, Harry's and Voldeshit's connection is a different form of Imperius, with images instead of actions?

 

Well if it's a connection that needs to be broken for the curse to be neutralised, might there be a type of barrier that would cause the afore-hypothesized "mindlink" to be cut off?

I agree with the idea that finite incantatem is a little too simple here, though I'm guessing that a lot of the reason why the curse is Unforgiveable is simply the intent that would have to be behind its casting, though the power of it would also be worth addressing.

A good way to test for Imperius would be to see how people reacted to pain, I'm thinking- the way it was described in GoF, it sounded like there was a degree of numbness involved, not unlike in hypnosis.

 

Harry and Voldemort are connected through their goddamned souls, something that goes a lot deeper than a pesky mindlink. Like, a lot deeper. The soul connection also brings a mindlink with it, if you must call it that. Since the connection is already established and no eye-contact is needed, Voldemort can legillimize Harry even from hundreds of miles away.

If we have to discuss the mechanism of the Imperius, however, we have to understand that it's fundamentally different from a simple legillimency connection. In legilimency, you establish a connection and then cast the "Legillimens" spell to sift through the mind of the victim. A simple Protego can reflect the spell and your own mind will then get invaded by the magic. The connection has the potential to work both ways, like Harry and Voldemort's does.

In Imperius, however, the connection is only one-way and your magic and your mind imposes itself on the victim's mind. It's not about a simple recon, it's straight-out invade, conquer and subjugate. It blots out the victim's own feeling, desires, what have you, leaving only an extension of the caster's will (and when the Imperio'd person subjugates another, he or she is acting in the stead of the original caster, like the Draco-Rosemerta-Bell chain).

While I don't think such an approach would work (time and space do matter in magic, but magic itself doesn't obey the laws of space like "a connection btween two points must go through a lot of other points" :/); there may be wards that can partially or fully negate the curse's effects when placed around an area. Nothing canon, of course, so purely a fanfic author's call. I won't use it, personally.