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Abandoned In the Clockface, Weighted and Weary by Nuhuh - M

Discussion in 'The Alternates' started by Testament, Jan 24, 2008.

  1. Samuel Black

    Samuel Black Chief Warlock

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    Hermione seems to be all about choice, given how she reacted to the house-elves. I think that she'd believe that enslaving muggles, taking away their choice, would be twice as bad as killing wizards, when they still had the choice to surrender.
     
  2. The Sour Kraut

    The Sour Kraut Seventh Year

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    Normally, the Harry Potter series ends after book five in my opinion, meaning that I ignore fics that are based on books six and seven more often than not.

    I'm glad I didn't ignore this one.
    It's written very well and made for a good read.

    The whole "Hermione betrays wizardkind" business was a bit off to me, though. It felt like Dumbledore was showing Harry a fake future to get him to travel back in time. And I would have liked to see Hermione's reaction when they shot Harry - this girl was always too trusting when it came to adults and authorities.

    I liked that Harry was intelligent enough not to blow his cover, especially in the hospital scene. Other authors would have him all disoriented and making mistakes like asking for the year or getting in Percival's face when he said that bit about the muggles.

    Definitely a story I'll read further.
    5/5 for the first two chapters.
     
  3. Srichapan

    Srichapan Disappeared

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    I’m talking about the moral code of the magical world, not mine. And don't give me that crap about 'what is moral and what is immoral'!
    The Rita thing was presented by JKR as something… unimportant or even funny. Nobody (not even Rita) ever questioned that thing. But, I’m willing to admit that that is a weak point.
    I think that in DH he wasn’t stupid at all. More useless, but not stupid. And I don't think you can find a fanfiction with a stupid Harry here. So, again I think that was unintentional.
    Well, you forgot another quote:
    That added at what I feel makes me think that she couldn’t do that.
    That was something she did unwillingly. And again, look above.
    Yeah, surrender and become slaves. Anyway, I’m tired of this argument about Hermione. Think what you want. It seems obvious to me, but apparently not to you.
     
  4. Mors

    Mors Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    ... I'm sorry, Srichapan? You were the first one to bring the moral business up. And it is relevant, so... good job!

    Now, I find this 'moral code of the magical world' thing a bit tricky... so I'm gonna assume it's similar to a general muggle moral code. You know, Good/Evil. (Unless of course you think the wizards have some especially helpful insight into the everyday ethical problems we face – in which case, we'll be glad to hear.)

    Abduction. Hmm, strong word. Let’s think about it for a moment. The existence of magic has finally been revealed to the world. Muggles and wizards are killing each other left and right. So what should the Grangers do? They’ve always known that their only daughter is a prominent witch, but now presumably so do other muggles, and some of them might not be completely understanding about it. I don’t know about you, dude, but to me being kept under Government protection would seem to be the best option. It’s abduction only if you’re kept somewhere against your own wishes, Srichapan. Not if there are people outside who would be only too happy to introduce you to sharp and pointy things.

    You assume that Hermione would never do something like betraying her friends to muggles. Betrayal doesn’t come into it. She chooses a side in the conflict, that’s all. It’s true that her friends are wizards, but she comes from a muggle family and her parents, when push comes to shove, will choose a side. Can you guess which side that is?

    So our dear Hermione is in a dilemma. Her friends are obliviating and controlling the muggles and the muggles are killing and burning the magical people. You say she’s never had trust in the Ministry of Magic, but that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t trust the authority. She simply trusts more the authority she sees every day, i.e. Dumbledore. And when she’s given an opportunity by the muggle government to work for them – bear in mind that this government is much more people-friendly than the MoM (from what we’ve seen in canon, anyway), and she’s been assured by the Prime Minister (read the story again, will you?) that the wizards will get a fair trial… why won’t she choose to work for them? The other side is, what, wizards who’re mind-controlling muggles? She thinks that the pureblood fanatics are behind all this – and she may well be right. Wizards were responsible for the breaching of the Statute of Secrecy. It’s not only the muggles that are to blame for all the carnage. And if she sides with the muggles and they win, she thinks she has a chance to help her friends. She lets the DA go, remember? And for the other side, well, most of the other influential wizards she’d seen are prejudiced and she doubts that she can help muggles if the wizards won. Especially since the House-Elf situation is a clear indication (again, to her) that wizards are only too happy to subjugate other sentient species.

    It’s not that she made a choice to betray her friends. It’s just that she had some shitty choices, and she made what to her seemed the best one. Maybe it wouldn’t have been the one she would’ve made, were she younger. But here’s something for you:

    People. Change.

    Get over it.
     
  5. claypigeon

    claypigeon First Year

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    I originally wasn't going to respond to this but I'm bored and it's at the very least mildly entertianing.

    I have never read were the Magical World's ethical code has differed so drastically from normal human society. They are not aliens or some wierd race of space babies, nor are they completely seperate from the Muggle World(the existence of half-bloods and muggleborns shows this). While it is true that differences between cultures can vary a great deal, I have never read where kidnapping and torture(trapping her in a jar as a bug for an unkown length of time fits this however mild) of a public figure were held as upstanding actions by any society.

    While true I am assuming that you at least have a relatively average social consciousness, I don't think that I am grasping at straws with that thought. I am simply using your values as a moral compass to gauge Hermione's actions.

    Stupid and ignorant people are,for the most part, useless. However, I quoted Andromalius because he stated clearer than I could have regarding Harry's thinking; good fast thinker, bad slow thinker. That statement does not call him stupid, it is saying that he does not properly think ahead.

    Your answer
    I did look above, and it didn't answer the question. Hermione helped them for a time when her parents were still being held by the government. Regardless of why she helped them out in the beginning she was still betraying her friends in the process. Now true Hermione's choices were betray her parents or betray her friends, but she still chose to betray her friends. Two people regardless of how close they are to you are not worth the lives of an entire people.

    That is the reason I asked that question. You have already agreed that she would put her parents first which forces her to betray her friends.
     
  6. Srichapan

    Srichapan Disappeared

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    There was a sentence that seemed to say something like 'who knows what is right and what is wrong?' I answered with the 'crap' part wanting to say that there is an accepted moral code and so we know what is considered right and wrong.

    Probably. But the betrayal is in both a wrong act (we know our world and we saw many betrayals in HP books, and it is clear that they aren't a right thing).
    For what concerns Rita, I repeat: I found the Rita thing definitely wrong, but it didn't seem so from the point of view of the magical world, but I already said that I admit that as a 'weak point'.

    Well, it is not stated with the term 'abduction', I'll give you that, but it is hinted very strongly.

    The rest of your post can be considered a possible scenario (even if the fanfiction lead to a completely different one). I continue to think that she could not do that, but you're right: people change. It's just that the fanfiction doesn't give what for me are accettable reasons for that kind of change on Hermione's part. And considering how far Harry came back in the past, I don't think the author will go deeper into that possible future, so it's likely that my opinion on the matter will remain the same.

    In the last book he was fairly good, in my opinion, a good 'thinker' overall.

    The situation is far more complicated. Hermione is far more complicated. She's not only righteous. We can't reduce her to only 'righteous'. Yes, she is righteous and rational, but she's also sensitive, very caring and a loyal friend. I simply don't think she could willingly accept to betray. Under a sort of blackmail, yes. Freely, no.
     
  7. Rin

    Rin Oberstgruppenführer DLP Supporter

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    I didn't exactly buy Hermione betraying the wizarding world like that either. Also, I doubt that the muggles really could do much against the wizards. Bullets really will run out eventually, and by the time they did, wizards casting a few well placed fiend-fire curses could wipe out the opposition. Or, one person casing a single "ACCIO GUNS!" would disarm just about every gun-weilding muggle in the area.

    However, be that as it may, I enjoyed the story once the author got past that stuff and into Dumbledore sending him back.

    As was stated earlier, I also didn't like Harry hesitating to help the girl. Harry doesn't hesitate. He just does, and then deals with the consequences. Let's keep in mind that this is a guy who upon seeing the Carrows spit in McGonnagal's face, Crucioed them unconcious. I doubt he'd have hesitated to do it again, especially in the face of three teen-aged boys beating up on an innocent little girl.

    Just how exactly does obliviating muggles so they don't know of your existance, but essentially letting them live their lives as they see fit, equate with enslaving them? Do you feel particularly "enslaved" because you can't just saunter onto an army base and see what goes on any time you feel like it? I sure as hell don't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  8. claypigeon

    claypigeon First Year

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    You misunderstood what was said in that sentence.

    It is implying that if the common ethical viewpoint, which I am assuming you are a part of, is not used as a basis for Hermoine's moral outlook then she is the one deciding what the difference between right and wrong. Because in the situation we are talking about it's not society that is determining the treatment of another person but a pissed of teenage girl. that is were the question was suppposed to lead you.

    Then you agree that she can make a bad decision.

    I'll quote you.

    If he was good at both short-term and long-term planning then how did he end up useless?

    Blackmail can't force you to do anything you are not willing to do. What it does do is stack the consequences against a certain action so that you are more inclined to make the choice that the blackmailer wants you to.

    With that in mind lets review Hermoine's options.

    a.) Side with the goverment. In which case the secrets of the Wizarding World are let known to the Muggle World and the butchering and/or controlling by the government can begin. However, her parents are alive.

    b.) Side with her friend. In which case her secrets are not given to the government and the Wizarding World doesn't burn because of her. She becomes parentless.

    By choosing A Hermoine betrayed her friends by giving up secrets she shouldn't have. By the time you start having a problem with her actions she has already sold her friends down the river.

    If she is capable of picking option A she is capable of betraying her friends.
    If she is capable of picking option B she is capable of betraying her parents.

    It's a shitty choice, but she's gotta make it.:D
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  9. BartucTheBloody

    BartucTheBloody Third Year

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    I didn't have a problem with Hermione's choice, but I guess Harry's hesitation in helping Ariana did seem a bit off. So far the story is a 4/5 for me.
    Mrs. Weasley had to cast lots of summoning charms all over Fred and George in the fourth book to make sure they weren't smuggling any Tongue Toffee's (or whatever they were called). Maybe this was just because she didn't know where they were, but I think its due to limitations on the spell. Also, in the fifth book when Lucius and Bellatrix say Accio Prophecy, all the prophecies in the Department don't go flying towards them. This would also suggest that they have to summon something specific.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  10. Srichapan

    Srichapan Disappeared

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    Ah, ok. Sorry.

    Yes, like you and me.
    But I don't think she could make that particular bad decision if not under a sort of blackmail or something.

    He didn't end up useless. In the end he vanquished a dark lord and I don't think we can define that as useless. But during the book, yes, he was somewhat more useless than in the previous books. But, he wasn't stupid at all in my opinion... a good thinker.

    Under blackmail, yes.

    Under blackmail, yes.
     
  11. Mors

    Mors Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    /me facepalms.

    Relentlessness, thy name is Srichapan.

    It's no longer that important, Srichapan. The fact is that she made it. The future as it was shown does not reveal much about Hermione's motivations-- and Dumbledore's commentary is not necessarily the gospel truth. While I understand that you have something of a fascination with Hermione, and are incapable of accepting the fact that she could've 'betrayed' her friends, let me remind you of something:

    This. Is. Fanfiction.

    It means: the author had an idea involving the canon characters that contradicted the official story and went about writing it. Usually that brings with it a certain freedom of characterization. You think Hermione is too OOC by making the choice, the author obviously didn't. And neither did people who like the story (and there are a lot of them, including me).

    You don't like Hermione's choices as she made them in this story, and you were certainly vocal about it. However, we. Kinda. Got. The. Point.

    Instead of bitching about Hermione in three (four?) consecutive posts, tell the author how the story might've been told better, if you want. I'm sure nuhuh will consider your opinion. If not, please stop posting the same shit over and over.
     
  12. Randeemy

    Randeemy Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Here here Mors Mortis.

    Just to clarify Scrichapan, you originally say:

    But you then suggest that she can make bad decisions, highlighted by claypigeon.

    Is it not therefore fair to assume that she could make a bad decision again?

    Also, I think the author is using Hermiones strong feelings regarding House elf slavery as a focal point for her decision to betray the wizarding world. Her fear is, based not only on the efforts of Voldemort but her knowledge of Dumbledore and Grindelwald's beliefs regarding muggles and the greater good, that the wizarding world can and eventually will come to a point where by they claim sovereignty over the muggle world and cast non magic people into slavery. That was my interpretation for why she might possibly betray the wizarding world.


    But again, like Mors Mortis says, it is fan fiction and the author can pull someone out of character if they so wish, even though I dont necessarily believe they have here.
     
  13. Samuel Black

    Samuel Black Chief Warlock

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    Quoted from the story exactly. Bolded the important parts.


    The magical ministries all over the world are trying to take over the government, trying to make Muggles into… into house elves. It's Death Eater agenda, Harry, how could you support that? You betrayed what your parents died for, what Dumbledore died for!” Hermione yelled back.

    “I'm stopping these bastards from killing us. Have you forgotten what they did to us? You forget the burnings? They fucking burned witches, they burned little children. They executed civilians. They drowned Trelawney. You call them house elves? They're exterminating us.”

    And you're enslaving them, Harry, people like my parents, Obliviated and… and doing whatever pureblood fanatics want,” she screeched. Seamus Finnegan whispered something furiously in future-Harry's ear. Suddenly they could see Muggle soldiers coming up in tight formation around Hermione, and they seemed to be hiding something behind them.

    “I can't believe you would say that, Hermione. You're like my sister, do you really think I'm part of any of it?” Harry's future self appealed to her, and for the first time there was sadness on both their faces.



    Turning muggles into house-elves? Wow, that sure sounds like enslaving people to me. Next time read the story before you fucking talk.
     
  14. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    Besides, I can see Dumbledore actually lying, if his goal is to send Harry back a few years. He'd feel that the tactical advantage would be well worth it.

    I'm WELL past trusting AD to be honest. What was that phrase? "Loki lies with the truth." The Headmaster (and the more we learn about him, the more accurate that title becomes) is very skilled in drawing out his preferred response from Harry. And everyone else, actually. If Hermione had died first, he would probably have shown her pictures of friends and family murdered by DE to get her to volunteer.
     
  15. Mors

    Mors Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    Hell, who the fuck knows what those visions were? I have trouble thinking that you can "see" the future when you're dead. I don't want dead gay people peeking into my shower. (/shudders.) There's a limit to tolerance. :p

    I wonder if Dumbledore only got hints of the future (like a seer, only he'd be more conscious about it) and constructed those scenes from the hints. As Banner said, depends on his motivations.

    I've seen the concept of the dead knowing bits and pieces of the future in fantasy before, usually those were explained away by them being Outside of our normal spacetime. I for one would be disappointed if nuhuh doesn't come back to it somewhere down the story. Harry wouldn't want to leave alone something that might tell him about the future, seeing that he wants to change its normal course.
     
  16. Srichapan

    Srichapan Disappeared

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    Hey there! Your post is kind of annoying.
    Are you kidding me? Are you blind? Are you stupid? Pay attention to what happened in this and in the previous page, please.
    I gave my opinion in my first post, an opinion about various things in this fanfiction apart from Hermione. Then other members asked for my reasons and I gave them. Then someone didn't like them or didn't agree with them and express their opinion, asking that I answered. I did it, and I said I was tired of the argument about Hermione and I conceded some points. Then someone called me again on that by asking questions. Was I supposed not to answer? Finally in my last post, I tried to be brief, still making my point.

    I'm not the one who concentrated willingly on Hermione. Other members (you for example) were.

    See, Mors Mortis? I'm not the one asking questions and it is not my fault if my answers continue to be the same. It probably has something to do with the fact that the questions continue to be the same or similar.
    I answer for the last time (ok Death Of Death?): yes, I think Hermione can make bad decisions, like everyone else. But I don't think she can make that particular bad decision (betray her friends) if not under a sort of blackmail. It doesn't matter that this is a fanfiction. I could have had a different opinion, if this story had given me different reasons for a change of Hermione's personality.

    Bye.
     
  17. Mors

    Mors Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    And here I thought we were getting along so well. : (

    I kinda thought we were agreeing to disagree there, mate. And yet, a post or two later...

    Here you are again, like before, bitching about it and completely refusing to even consider that the author might've found the idea of a Hermione naturally turning traitor plausible. But wait, you did say that she could have changed. Why this about-turn, mate? Why don't just admit that there're other possible points of view than your own? I've never said that you're necessarily wrong, Srichapan; but when you don't have something properly explained away in a story, you try to fit that in. You've been bitching about what's essentially a minor point in a story while it could've been explained away by any number of things. For some fucking time.

    Here, I bow to your massive powers of sarcasm and say right out that to some (you and Hermione fanboys) Hermione's character might've seemed to be a bit OOC (just as I said before, but obviously you have better things to do than reading posts at forums, I mean, you have a life for god's sake, amirite?). Notice how many people are cheering, and be content.

    In summary: Hermione isn't important to the story. Nobody wants to hear about Hermione anymore. We're here to read about Harry, and if you don't believe me, check out the name of the site.

    Nuhuh: Update. I mean it.
     
  18. Antivash

    Antivash Until we meet again... DLP Supporter Retired Staff

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    ...

    /Vash
    faps to cat-fight.
     
  19. Mors

    Mors Denarii Host DLP Supporter

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    ... I refuse to be a party to this. >_>' Just... you guys (and girls. Gotta be PC. Banner wins too.) all win, okay? Let's not make him any more excited...

    /leaves, but not like a coward, no sir...
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2008
  20. Nuhuh

    Nuhuh Dastardly Shadow Admin Retired Staff

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    Every time Vash faps, loli Ariana cries.

    Working on it.

    Hermione's motivations have been explained in the chapter, several people were able to get it others not. I personally don't think that its OOC for her to side with one group she sees as being oppressed as opposed to others.

    In the glimpse of the situation there are elements amongst the wizard kind and muggle kind who are both oppressor and oppressed.

    Hence Harry and Hermione ending up against each other; they are both protecting those who can't protect themselves, while in the groups they are protecting there are those who would cheerfully subjugate the other.

    It was used to illustrate the fact that it isn't always 'a choice between what is easy and what is right,' sometimes what is right isn't obvious and neither choice is easy. In short, JKR's an idiot.

    This discussion went on way too long. The only thing more that can happen to it is for Taure to join it...although on the flip-side one of his posts could have exhausted other posters by now.

    SO...shall I make Dumbledore gay and have Harry try to straighten him out with unrelenting visits to the finest English brothels?
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2008