There's been a few of these threads but now that FB has come out it may be worth looking at the topic again.

I'm increasingly of the view that in the magical world the nation-state is significantly less important than in the Muggle world. The reason for this is the International Statute of Secrecy. Most wizards seem to have loyalty to their kind first, and nation second. They view themselves as part of an international community that spreads across national borders.

We see this exhibited in a variety of ways.

The most significant is that magical governments are literally forbidden by the ICW from going to war with each other. See the following:

And:

Wizards getting involved in wars is apparently contrary to the statute of secrecy and national magical governments are expected to enforce this (though it is not fully effective).

See also the following regarding the American revolution:

The running theme seems to be this: secrecy trumps nation, interference in wars between Muggle states is contrary to the Statute of Secrecy, but breaches occur. Nonetheless, these breaches do not affect the official stances of the magical governments, and they remain duty bound to prosecute those who are caught breaking the Statute.

It's also worth noting that the ICW seems to have the power to either remove heads of magical government or at the very least lean very heavily on nations to have a head of government removed:

With all of this in mind, the vision of the ICW as a magical UN (as commonly portrayed in fanon) seems misplaced. It has far more authority than the UN. The international wizarding world is less like a splintered group of magical nations, and much more like a global conspiracy (think Illuminati) with regional chapters.

This vision of magical government is further enhanced when you contemplate the realities of the size of small wizarding populations. Sophisticated government is unnecessary. There's no need for powerful constitutional checks and balances or separation of powers when everyone knows everyone else. Civil servants like Arthur write legislation, pass it, and then enforce it. The relative informality of the use of political power in the wizarding world makes sense in light of the fact that the population of magical Britain is like that of a small town.

In such a world, a much greater emphasis ends up on significant individuals. It's internationally respected and feared powerful wizards like Dumbledore, Voldemort and Grindelwald who are the juggernaughts of the magical world, not the nation-state. This also works well with the view of the ICW we got in Fantastic Beasts: again, a relatively informal gathering of what appeared to be influential individuals who decided matters on common consensus rather than any strict voting procedure or constitutional process. There were nowhere near enough people there to represent every country in the world.

It is significant that the Wizengamot is named as it is. It mirrors the Anglo-Saxon witenagemot, which was an informal gathering of influential people (landowners and clergy) called on an ad hoc basis. It had no set membership, no rules or procedure, no regularly scheduled meetings. It seems like decision making in the magical world follows a similar pattern.

As a final note, it might be worth speculating as to the number of highly influential Dumbledore-like individuals in the magical world at any given time. It strikes me that a good comparison (in order to create the right dynamic) might be that of billionaires in the Muggle world. What happens if we make the ratio of Dumbledore-esque wizards to population the same as that of billionaires to population?

Assumptions:

Wizarding Britain population: 10,000

Assuming Britain has a proportionate share of global wizards, that will mean 107 global wizards for every British wizard, and therefore a global magical population of around 1,000,000.

Now, there's around 1800 billionaires in the world (pop 7 billion). But the dynamic we're wanting is not the number of billionaires relative to global population, but more the dynamic of billionaires relative to population within a developed western nation.

There are 120 billionaires in Britain (pop 65,000,000). That's a ratio of 1.8 x 10^-6. If we use that ratio as the ratio of Dumbledore-esque wizards to wizarding population, then at any one time there's around 1.8 Dumbledore-esque wizards in the world. Let's round that up to 2. If that's true, then Dumbledore and Voldemort both being British kinda means that in the latter 20th century, Britain had both of the world's top-level wizards. It would certainly explain why there was not much of an international response to Voldemort.

 

That's a bit flawed logic, as a "billionaire" is an arbitrary limit that doesn't have anything to do with real world power structures.

Basically every country in the world has a more or less the same fixed number of most influential people regardless of the population of said country. That number is based on how many people you can have enough personal trust with to make deals rather than on any fixed percentage.

 

If you want to argue that I recommend taking it to the politics section as it's highly tangential.

 

A rebuttal.

1. I question the use of the examples. Rowling has a bad habit of declaring that the HP verse works [in a way that supports Rowling's own real world politics]. So how much of this is after-the-fact Rowling declaring HP to in opposition to Scotland Referendums/Brexit/Rise of nationalism generally. I can't argue that it's not there, because it's her world, and it's a fair enough basis for delving into fanon, but... if one wishes to argue the books say, then one must argue the books.

2. There is every indication that not only do wizards have nations, they do so to a stronger degree than muggles. Consider:

- The national culture, such as it is, is much stronger among wizards. Every magical child in Great Briatin - and only Great Britain - attends Hogwarts. They have few options in the way of mass media: everyone reads the same newspaper, the same gossip columns, the same tabloid. They listen to the same wireless programs. They watch the same quidditch league. In the recent past, everyone has endured the same war. Human nature being what it is, there's no way this does not create an in-group identity.

- In Harry's year, there are six students who we can say are not Anglo-Saxon, Irish, Scottish, or Norman: Dean Thomas, Anthony Goldstein, Su Li, Parvati Patil, Padma Patil, Blaise Zabini: 15%. Real-world statistics being what they are, where depending on the source 'foreign' means anything from 'born abroad, does not hold citizenship' to 'wasn't here in 1065', my best take is that the wizarding world lags the muggle. Admittedly, the sample sizes are tiny and we're going on conjecture here. Nonetheless, between this, and the fact that the Commonwealth is never mentioned in any capacity (I'm sure that in the post-book spam of factoids, it does in fact exist) lead me to believe that there is little if any migration at all.

So I would consider 'Magical Britain' to not only be much more socially cohesive through common experience, but much more concentrated as well, as British purebloods did not run off to India or Canada or South Africa or get deported to Australia. (I'm sure Fantastic Beasts fucked this argument royally, and if not, Pottermore probably did.)

It probably doesn't help that you have a constant drip-drip of muggleborns acting as a tether - however tenuous - to the goings on in the muggle world.

Which is exactly why the ISS needs to outlaw getting involved in muggle wars. Not because wizards eschew nationality, but because even perfectly sensible wizards and witches are likely to start waving their wands like a pack of idiots as soon as the muggles start waving the flag. You can't have a distinct, independent, and above all secret society, if the minute the balloon goes up everyone is tossing it out the window!

Other book evidence:

- national sports teams

- other magic schools that select students explicitly base on country of origin

- Ron recognizing that Romania exists. If I wanted to get across the idea that wizards didn't really think in terms of nations, and I had never been exposed to muggles, I would say something like, "Charlie works with Dragons in Carpathia." Or I would use a term from before the ISS. "Yeah, Charlie works in Dacia..." I would NOT think of it in terms of Romania. Egypt, obviously, is a bit different, and I do not take it as evidence one way or the other.

- national historical sentiment re: TWT

- WWII/Grindelwald overlap, prior to anything Pottermore...

- The quintessentially "British" nature of the series. They ride a steam engine to school. Magic carpets are banned, they ride broomsticks instead. It's a boarding school. The magical creatures are appropriate to the mythos of Britain/Europe.

 

i see any problems with wizarding politics with the inclusion of Asia and South America, as the magic of HP verse is very much based in latin so obviously has Roman routes, so we have the problem of countries such as Japan and China, which may have used a different magical system before the Europeans discovered them.

it seems that Britain is fairly isolated, but also open so the wizarding world is rather small, and recognise Muggle borders at least.

(i only consider the HP 7 books as canon, and maybe fantastic beasts when i have read it, but otherwise not)

 

vlad

TL,DR: Your argument is largely an argument for the concept of the British nation, but I never said there was no such thing. My argument concerned the nation-state, emphasis on the state part. A state that does not have the right to wage wars is indisputably one that has ceded more sovereignty than any existing independent Muggle state. To rebut the OP requires more than showing that the concept of Britishness is valued by British wizards, as this was never in doubt. Rather it must be shown that they value Britishness above membership of the magical community.

To address the points in turn:

1. Basically a discussion on what counts as canon, which is a whole discussion to itself.

2A: National culture. I'm not sure if I agree with your point here. You've pointed towards a few factors that show that British wizards share a common social life, but you haven't made that extra step to show that these factors are national in flavour. There are all sorts of identities other than a national identity that these factors could create e.g. House identities based on Hogwarts houses. Furthermore, your ultimate conclusion relies on "human nature being what it is" rather than actual instances of common national feeling. When we look at actual events, if anything, the fact that a civil war complete with social cleansing occurs during the books shows a lack of national unity, not an abundance of it.

2B: I don't think a lack of migration implies a lack of open borders. Real life Britain has had an open border with Europe for decades and immigrants make up around 15% of the population. There are all sorts of factors which influence migration, language being a major one, and being able to migrate doesn't necessarily mean that you will. Indeed, in a world where instant transport is commonplace, I'm not sure if immigration still works as a concept.

3. If sports teams were evidence of a strong nation-state, then Puddlemere would be a state.

4. Magic schools. It's notable that in general magic schools take in students from a number of different nationalities, though yes they are essentially local in nature.

5. Ron recognizing that Romania exists - seems like you're beginning to stretch things here. I never said that countries don't exist.

6. Tri-wizard competitiveness. Between schools, not nations, and in any case, just a bit of harmless (totally harmful) fun.

7. WWII/Grindelwald overlap - was always speculative. Well before Pottermore I was always of the feeling that Grindelwald being a blunt Hitler analogue would be hugely disappointing and unimaginative.

8. - The quintessentially "British" nature of the series - again, no one is denying that geography exists.

 

I'll sit down and write my thoughts on this in detail after work but before that, there are a few things I've always wondered about in regards to borders specifically.

Let's take Quidditch teams. Ireland has one, England has one, do Wales and Scotland? Is Northern Ireland a recognised thing?

What about relatively new nations on the continent? Is there still an Austro-Hungarian magical government? Did the breakup of Yugoslavia result in the breakup of a magical government?

If the wizards didn't just go with their Muggle counterparts in every instance, and why would they, then where is the line drawn?

Is the magical map of Europe significantly different than the one we know?

 

Does not the ICW ban on magical intervention only pertain to muggle nation-state conflicts? This is understandable, as the motivation behind the ban is to preserve secrecy, and it would be hard to do that if wizards were seen by muggle soldiers dueling on the no-man's-land between the battle trenches at the Somme.

It makes no mention of purely magical wars between magical nation-states. So it's not necessarily an argument for the non-existence of magical nation-states.

 

I'm not sure what you mean with strong nation state, but obviously the international influence on Britain is very limited. All through books 5, 6 and 7 the British wizarding world fucked themselves up with no intervention from ICW, and in GoF we see Fudge fumbling when dealing with foreign wizards.

Also the economy seems to be very local, and there's very few imported goods (except maybe potions ingredients). There's the one local wand maker, two local providers of clothes, local drinks, local joke shop, etc. No French fashion, no international media, no ethnic restaurants.

On the other hand it makes some sense that there would be very strong international interest to stop any single country from breaking the Statute of Secrecy, as a single break would spread immediately worldwide.

On the other hand the the foreign students visiting Hogwarts all seem to capable of speaking English, so maybe it's just Britain that's isolationist.

 

So we agree there is a magical British nation.

Is there a magical British state? Yes. It has a territory of jurisdiction. It has a population of citizens. It has a government.

Said government has ceded (at least in theory) some of that power to international law: though how that law is enforced, I don't know. But it's clear that wizards and witches concern themselves more with laws passed by the British MoM (or educational decrees by a political flunkie dressed as a professor, for that matter) than with whatever mandates are being handed down by an international body.

tl;dr: the magical British nation-state exists, and is much more important both culturally and politically to British wizards than the magical equivalant of the UN.

 

I always assumed that every country had its own form of magical government. However, if we take a wizarding population of about 1,000,000, that means there has to be magical governments that encompass more than one nation.

Say, what about New Spain? It covered Mexico, a great part of the US and Central America. Where they ruled by Spain's Ministry? Or did a new Ministry rose? Pottermore mentions that wizards knew of the existence of the "New World" before Muggles did but it opens lots of questions regarding the politics it involved.

 

I have to agree with this. This is a bog standard case of international law making war (even by sovereign states) illegal in certain cases. This is the same as with the muggle world. Crimes of aggression, anyone?

 

An important thing to note is Ireland. I'm not particularly familiar with Ireland and Britain's history, but as I understand it Irish nationalism is very strong. Yet in the magical world there is no Irish ministry. There's obviously a cultural distinction as the Irish quidditch league is separate from the British one, but the Irish haven't pushed for an independent government. Nationalism doesn't seem to be the driving force in magical politics.

Also, we should expect fewer immigrants in the magical world. Without an industrial revolution creating incredible inequality between countries, the average wizard in Africa/Asia/Latin America has far less incentive to move to America or western Europe. Travel should be easier with magic, but I'd be shocked if permanent relocation is common.

 

Maybe I'm missing a post canon quote or its something from Pottermore but where does it say Ireland doesn't have their own government. Don't perceive this as a shot at you, it's not, in fact I wouldn't be surprised considering JKR's stance on Scottish independence but just sharing a school doesn't mean much. I also feel like it's been mentioned that there are smaller schools in Ireland.

 

Order of the Phoenix, chapter 7.

As far as I know a separate Irish ministry is never referenced, and this quidditch league isn't called the Northern Irish league, so I assumed the British ministry really does include the entirety of the British Isles.

Edit: Another thing, seeing as Irish kids go to Hogwarts, wouldn't an Irish ministry get involved when Fudge was issuing all those educational decrees?

 

There might be smaller schools, but the only reference I can find about schooling for magical residents of Ireland is this interview by Rowling:

source

 

True, the ICW doesn't intervene. But note that both Dumbledore and Voldemort are powerful, perhaps the two most powerful wizards in the world. When did the Ministry fall? Just a month or two after Dumbledore's death. As far as we know, it never fell during Voldemort's first attempt - and Dumbledore was alive.

This makes me question whether the ICW simply didn't intervene because they didn't have anyone capable of standing up to Voldemort. Perhaps they thought Britain was, after Dumbledore's death, "gone".

 

although ICW not interfering makes little sense, as Voldemort was never very stable and would have most likely eventually revealed magic to the non magical population, so i would have presumed that the ICW would have had some form of responce. the fact that they did not intervene suggests that they were either afraid or had no knowledge of what was going on.