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Is Harry/Tonks relationship morally wrong?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Don, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. Sorrows

    Sorrows Unspeakable Prestige DLP Gold Supporter

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    It would be nice to live in a world were parents could be universally relied on to protect their children. But we don't. I have lived places where there are no state social services and I can tell you that you would not believe that if you saw the consequences (which incidentally you can't do fuck all about because families have sole charge of their children) up close.

    Also I'm sure should someone rob/attack/harm you or people you love (or you found your 13 year old sibling/child was getting fucked by her teacher/uncle/granny) you would call the damn police and get yourself some of that state-sponsored morality you are apparently so ideologically opposed too. If you really try to tell me you wouldn't I don't think I'll ever be able to take you seriously again.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  2. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Sorrows, you are changing my parameters. Naturally I would call the police after an attack on me or anyone else, loved or not. But what has that got to do with morality?

    Laws exist, in my view, because ultimate freedom is only possible for a single person on earth. So in order to protect my personal liberty (i.e., my right to live unharmed) we agree to curtail everyone's right to randomly harm people. Not because (and that's the important part!) this is a self-purpose, or somehow a moral imperative, but because we weighed both rights and on aggregate agreed that the former is more important than the latter.

    Morality doesn't enter this question.

    And for the other part, you invented the 13-yr-old. I'll humour you, though: For the nearly miniscule chance that it was not rape -- and I mean rape, the other side physically overpowering the struggling child -- which it virtually always will be, because children (not adolescents!) typically do not like to have sex with grown-ups that possibly are even their relatives, and which rightfully will be answered with some of the thoughest laws we have: Because you literally took away the most precious thing we have -- free will; so, for that off-chance: Indeed, I would deal with it on a case-by-case basis, and try to get into the child's head, rather than calling the authorities on the spot. What led to this? Does the child understand what's going on? Was it taken advantage of? If I determine that the child is too young to understand, what do I need to do to prevent this from happening again?

    Again, morality doesn't enter this question.

    I think it's also a pretty dumb way to deal with this, tbh. What is the better question here, and who is the better parent: The one who asks "is this moral?" or the one who asks "is this good and healthy for the child?"


    All of which wasn't my point (I was talking about incest among consenting adults) and not the point of the thread (Harry isn't 13, Harry is 15). As an aside, if you truly wanted to define "morality" as "what the law allows" -- which I think is nonsense, see above -- then all you have to do is to posit that in the wizarding world, the AoC is 15, not 16. Problem solved. But somehow, that never appeals to the morality-crowd, either.

    Which reveals their intentions: It's not about having laws that reflect a morality, it's about having laws that reflect their morality. And with that, as I noted in the quote, I have a problem indeed. Keep your judgements to yourself -- and out of my life.

    Finally:
    I think I just did ... so I'm sorry that your perception of me changed? We've both been here for ages, I thought it was clear -- we surely must've talked about these and other topics (say, security, where I always tangle with Darth_Revan -- I'd rather risk the next 9/11 than have the laws that were created after it) before.
     
  3. Sorrows

    Sorrows Unspeakable Prestige DLP Gold Supporter

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    Yeah that was pretty snippy of me. Apologies.

    Still I think your wrong to say our laws are not governed by morality though not all morality is governed by laws. Morality is a system of values dictating 'good' and 'bad' behavior' society decided that it is morally wrong to kill/steal/maim people and have made laws that enforce that. The concept of 'personal rights' was developed as a response to developing morals about the personal liberties afforded to an individual.

    From my personal experience working with children and teens who are victims of sexual abuse and sitting in on trials involving family child abuse I can tell you that your definition of child rape is both wrong and reductive. Sure, some rape looks like that. Most does not. Children who are sexually abused by people they know do not need to be held down. The do not struggle. They do not understand what is happening to them, they trust and love the person that is doing it to them. They have no frame of reference to understand it is abuse. Often they accept it as part of life, much as you may accept a beating if your parents were into corporal punishment, painful perhaps, or just uncomfortable, but normal. They might even have been manipulated into thinking that they chose it. If you talked to them they would not frame it as rape which is precisely why they need to be protected from it. They do not have the capacity to consent.

    As for adult incest, its a murkier subject. I think if you are talking older generation/younger you still have great potential for power imbalances from shared history. Single generation incest does not have a significantly grater chance of producing genetic defects in children.
     
  4. Sey

    Sey Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    What the fuck is wrong with you?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2018
  5. Tobin

    Tobin Banned

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    I felt the same way. Thats why I posted a link to all who were saying otherwise. And I did warn you so don't flame me.
     
  6. Sey

    Sey Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    No. I mean you, the picture is a whole other story.
    --- Post automerged ---
    Why the fuck do you think its a good idea to post that?
     
  7. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Order Member

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    ANYWAY...

    Considering the seven year difference between the two of them, it depends on how old Harry is at the time.

    If he's 17+, the Wizarding age of majority, then it's probably fine. Maybe a bit weird, especially if the two interact a lot when Harry was 15 or younger, but otherwise let two them date.

    If he's younger than that, then definitely no. There's a reason why even consensual sex between a teenager and an adult is considered statutory rape.
     
  8. Distaly

    Distaly Fourth Year

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    This might explain why it could be illegal, not why it might be immoral. Even more so because we dont know the law in wizard england for that. To give you an example in Germany consensual sex between 14 year old Harry and adult Tonks would be legal (it is of course a bit more complicated but per se its possible)


    I belive the question cant be answered only with age, it depends on the two people. In our case that means it depends how Tonks and Harry are written, how experienced Harry is and more.
     
  9. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Order Member

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    Wait, what? Do I even want to know how that works?
     
  10. telecaster11

    telecaster11 First Year

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    The problem with this thread is that it deals with the issue of morality, rather than legality. It is possible to determine whether the relationship is legal or not, but if we are talking morally then it depends entirely on your personal beliefs about morality. Whether or not morality is subjective is, of course, an entirely different question (one could say that deciding whether or not morality is subjective is a subjective question itself :)

    Also, this is fucked.
     
  11. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Well getting fucked legally is the entire point here, isn't it?
     
  12. Arthellion

    Arthellion Ban(ned) Arthellion

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    I think, at the core of the matter, the reason we don't allow underage/overage dating is because it is felt the older partner will be in a place of power to manipulate the younger. This changes once the younger partner grows and gains the maturity necessary to make those kinds decissions.

    So...maturity of the two partners is the key factor.

    Theoretically you could have a 10 year old with the maturity of a forty year old dating a 40 year old and it would be morally okay because maturity is what matters. Practically, that just doesn't happen in the real world. Despite being very fluid and nebulous, there is a very real correlation between age/life experience and emotional maturity. There is a reason we have underage distinctions and pedophilia is a sickening crime. Which is why, in the real world, Harry/Tonks would be morally wrong. Using canon harry, I would also argue its morally wrong.

    However, in fanfiction, you can have a harry with the maturity of a 20 year old. It's imaginary. Its ficition, but the theoretical can become "real." So it could be argued, that the morality of the Harry/Tonks relationship is based upon how mature the author makes Harry. If the author makes Harry and Tonks emotional equals, the relationship (in fanfiction) is not immoral.

    But, once again, that just doesn't happen in the real world.
     
  13. Anarchy

    Anarchy Totally Sirius DLP Supporter

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    This thread is like a dog chasing its own tail. round and round and round it goes...
     
  14. Psychotic Cat

    Psychotic Cat Order Member

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    Wrong Black Anarchy, it's about Tonks not Sirius.
     
  15. vlad

    vlad Groundskeeper Prestige

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    Logically speaking, yes - any sort of sexual relationship while Harry is a school boy and Tonks is a cop is definitely immoral, and so anything within the Hogwarts time frame would qualify.

    But meh - it's fandom. As long as the author doesn't go into explicit detail about how young anyone is, anything from Yule Ball on is more or less fair game. There's plenty of stuff even in canon that outside of a book would be seriously fucked up (the ZGF approach towards love potions being the obvious tip of the iceberg), but you roll with it in the context of make-believe.
     
  16. Mal'sSerenity

    Mal'sSerenity First Year

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    Well I'm a baptist so I'm sure you can guess my blanket opinion on the matter of sexual relationships, but for the context of this question I'll just say that it depends on Harry's age and maturity in the whatever given fic this relationship happens in.
     
  17. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Way to debase any future argument you might have here.
     
  18. deyas

    deyas Slug Club Member

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    I'll kick one more thing out there that I haven't yet seen mentioned: the quality of any state-required sexual education in the country/society in question.

    Germany, for example, has their age of consent at 14. I'm pretty much okay with this, because Germany has one of the more comprehensive and successful (teen pregnancy rates, transmission of STDs, happiness with first sexual encounter when their old enough to look back on it) sexuality education programs in the western world. And, they have laws which would seem to adequately protect children from predation by older people, in my admittedly spotty understanding of the subject.

    By contrast, England has one of the worst (using the same aforementioned measures of success) programs in Europe. Neither of which hold a candle to the absolute failure of the abstinence only education taught in many parts of the US, but that's a different conversation.

    With all of that said, I find it extremely unlikely that any relationship between a roughly canon interpretation of a 22 year old Tonks and a 16 year old Harry wouldn't be exploitive. Maybe, maybe, if wizarding England had a comprehensive sexuality education program (which I think any sane person will say it canonically does not, if it has any program at all), the age gap between the two could be breached, given Tonks depicted maturity level, and Harry's life experiences, but I highly doubt it.

    Which isn't even getting into any issues with Tonks position of authority; but I think @Sorrows already pretty well went through that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  19. Mal'sSerenity

    Mal'sSerenity First Year

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    While I probably should have know better than to say anything regarding religion on an internet forum, it doesn't really make it okay to insult someone that has never really done anything to you nor does it make me incapable of intelligent conversation as you would seem to imply. If I post something stupid or derogatory then by all means feel free I would have it coming but otherwise I would ask you to not disrespect me when I have done nothing to warrant it.

    That's all I'm going to say on the subject because I don't want to turn this into a religious argument that I know will never actually get anywhere.
     
  20. zugrian

    zugrian Squib

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    I personally don't care at all about the age difference of HarryxTonks as there are far, far more offensive & potentially illegal/immoral pairings. I'm looking at you thousands of Snape/Hermione pairings.

    However, assuming Harry is above the age of consent (16 where I live & in the UK as well), then I don't see how you can argue that this is any more wrong than the canon romance of Bill & Fleur, where they meet when she's 17 and he's 24-25. Especially considering that's maybe the only semi-decent romance in canon.
     
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