Well, define biased. He's mentioned as being Omniscent and Omnipotent by literally everyone who talks about him, but if you consider everyone biased...

The last ones standing would be the ones ganging up on hell, by virtue of that being everybody.

Wrong.

It was stated in the RPG that Demons (which we now know serve as a part of hell) would be all for kicking down the Outer Gates and welcoming everything in, which has been stated will destroy the Universe.

And even ifit wasn't, why would anyone prefer rule under Hell to rule under Humanity (who doesn't even know they exist)?

Wouldn't matter, because in your retarded idea, the population of the Black Court alone would have exploded to the point that it couldn't possibly be supported.

In other words, this relies on God being a dick, which (in the DV) is bullshit.

Everytime gods are mentioned, they are immediately seperated from the Big G. Everytime. And he's stated to have been older then Humanity, meaning he can't be like Zeus, who fell out of power due to lack of Human worship.

(Also, Jim has said several times that he will not be going the bash Christianity route that everyone else seems to go, because he didn't want to follow the cliche of all Christians being either hypocrites or stupid.)

Well, Michael has said he was, Harry has said he was, Bob has kind of said he was, Uriel has said he was, and the fucking Denarians, who hate God, have said he was.

 

Maybe someone who is actually enough powerful to know for sure how powerful is God (so not Bob or Harry) and doesn't have personal connection with Him (the rest mentioned). No matter how much Denarians hate God, it's useful for them that everyone thinks He is so above everyone, because as His ex-servants it makes them look only more powerful than servants of other gods.

So - other gods? Dragons? Even what Queens (or better yet Mothers) have to say about Him would be interesting to me. In other words, even considering what you said about Jim's approach to Him, is He the creator of the Universe and everyone in it, or just another being living there?

I think that if we consider all against all war then with careful planing Hell can instead of going into open battle just wait till someone else emerges victorious from this struggle and then finish him of.

 

...That doesn't ake sense. They hate God; subing him would be a good thing for them, as would revealing his lies. Besides, why would TN lie while beating up Harry? He was about to kill him and was obviously angry; it doesn't make sense for them to lie.

We've only seen Odin; other Gods have only been mentioned. We've seen all of one Dragon and he talked in one chapter. Mab only talked about his Archangels.

If he was just someone who lived there and had installed himself as a false Omnipotent being in order to cultivate worship for things he didn't do, that would fall under the 'hypocritical or stupid' thing.

Hell and everyone in it is locked away far from Earth and Humanity. They can't do anything to anyone unless given permission and power from the people involved (except for the Denarians).

If that state of affairs changed, Heaven would crush them back down in an instant, because protecting Human Free Will is what they have been stated to do.

As for everyone else, that would not happen. There is a carefully defined balance of power on Earth in the DV, with rules of War and Laws and Accords. Unless there is a massive change somewhere, something like what you're suggesting is about as likely as a Nucear War.

 

It's not a matter of lying, it's a matter of pride. The only thing the Fallen have left, really, is their pride. If they can make people (or even themselves) perceive them as superior, it helps soothe said pride. The same kind of thing happens all the time. People convince themselves that whatever they happen to be involved with is bigger and more important than it really is, just to make themselves feel better about it.

Basically, they'd want people to think God is omnipotent and omniscient, because if they survived a fight against an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, they are perceived to be that much better than everyone else.

Though granted, that is applying human logic to a Fallen Angel, but nothing I've seen directly from one of the Fallen seems to counteract it.

Yet every religion ever has claimed to have created the universe. Norse myths say that the Earth was created by killing Ymir and using his corpse to create Utgard, Midgard and Asgard.

The Norse and Abrahamic creation myths can't both be true, since we know that they are distinct entities. Thus, either Odin or YHWH installed themselves as a false Creator. Not to mention the thousand and one other religions and their creation myths.

No one without any pre-existing bias has weighed in on it. It's just as likely that the ancient Egyptian creation myth is the correct one and the rest are a bunch of pretenders. Or hell, it could be that all of the religions were simply pretenders created by human belief, while the real creator never deigned to intervene.

Until the 7th seal is breached. Then Hell is free to do whatever the fuck it pleases until Jesus and The Beast finish their punch-up in Israel. It's not that preposterous for the Biblical armageddon to happen. Hell, the whole book series is building towards an "apocalyptic trilogy". Why is it such a stretch that Dresden would play a key role in defeating the forces of Hell during said trilogy?

 

Only that's not how the Fallen opperate. Take Lash for example, she was quite willing to be subservient when it fulfilled her goals. In fact, most of the Fallen we've seen have put their pride aside at one point or another.

Honestly, I have no idea where you're getting this from.

Only not, because they didn't 'survive' so much as were sent to a place of eternal suffering for pissing off the big guy.

That's like saying criminals seem more impressive when cops capture them and put them away for life. It's retarded.

They are alive because he wishes; he could kill them any time he wishes. That's not impressive; that's pathetic. And anyone with enough of a brain to take out a dictionary and look up Omnipotent would know that.

I.e. Bullshit.

Well, except everything, yeah.

The difference is, we know that those guys only have power because of Humanity. On the other hand, we know God and the Angels predate Humanity by a lot.

Yes, but gods have been seperated from God; the former are dependent on Humans for power and thus cannot have predated them. The latter does not depend on them and did predate them.

We know none of those goods could have done it, though.

If we're going by the Bible here, then this is stupid and pointless, because we know what happens.

God wins.

(Also, besides the above, remember that Jim is not bashing Christianity.)

 

This is all well and good, but if it is indeed the case then it's not the Biblical apocalyse that's happening, is it? (My response was directed solely at the idea that it was the Biblical apocalypse occurring). It's just some other war that may or may not lead to the end of the world.

 

All of this ridiculous bullshit could simply be avoided by it not being the literal apocalypse with all the Big Names duking it out, and Hell running free and shit, but a much simpler, World Disaster Event that forces Humanity to migrate. The idea of Marcone with TN's coin as one side of evil, and the rest of the Denarians as another side of evil, with God and Good somewhere in there too is still plausible, and we ignore this bullshit.

 

Or... If you wanted a literal apocalypse, why don't make it so it fits the bible more?

The bible does not say that one day Hell will rise up and battle Heaven, but a long and gradual build up. We would not know the fighting was approaching until it was far too late. Evil is not just murdering but the sneaky manipulations that worm it's way into us.

What if a powerful fallen managed to get into power? I'm talking like being the president of the United States and someone the people absolutely adored. We already know that the fallen love to cause chaos as it makes them more powerful. It is simple; have the fallen reveal faeries, vampires and magic. Ultimate chaos.

The faeries would be screwed because we live in the iron age. The vampires would live in panic and end up turning mass humans into servants/vampires to use them against other humans.

The fallen could also be saying how the mighty God is not as powerful or loving as anyone thought. It could all be in the plan to allow Micheal, an angel, to kill him and showing the world that angels are just devil's in disguise. (anyways, the fallen just gets a new host when a country looses its leader.)

As we see, faith is what makes this God (and other Gods in the past) powerful. If less and less people trusted or had faith in him... God and his angels would end up loosing tremendous amounts of power. This would also cause mass chaos which would make the fallen (and hell) stronger.

What I am trying to suggest is instead of having everyone make deals with Hell, have Hell manipulate humans into doing what it's wants.

I mean 7 Billion humans is a lot to kill off, even if you are mother summer and mother winter.

 

This is one of those situations that could happen if the events causing it were possible, but isn't, because they aren't.

You see, for this happen (that is, a Fallen becoming President or something lke that), everyone that would want to stop it would have to sit on their asses for several years. And everyone that would want to stop it is...almost literally everyone. Nobody would want a Fallen to have that much power and they would immediately stop it.

The same would be true if a Vampire tried to become President or a Fae or anyone else.

'But that only matters if someone finds out!'

Angels have Intellectus. The End.

Though, the faeries also have access (and live in) another dimension, which normal humans can't access without outside help.

Vampires would be crushed utterly, like they were in the past, because we know all their weaknesses. And we've come a long way from the 1800s.

Only, that's stupid. Michael would never get directly involved in that situation, because he has Intellectus and would see it was a bad move. If anything, he'd send Uriel, and the Fallen would die with no one the wiser as too how.

But it would never come to that, because the entire situation is retarded.

First of all, a leader who doesn't like God! Oh noes, call the assassins! Uh, no.

Second of all, a Fallen would never become President because somewhere along the lines he'd end up dead, because no one wants an enemy with that much power. Somewhere between points A and B, the Knights would get called in and either kill the guy or take the coin. Or a Fae would be informed (by the Knights or the Angels; it doesn't matter) and he'd be killed off. Or a Warlock would rip the guys heart out. Or whatever.

Only, we know that's not true for the Big G God. We know he predates Humanity entirely and that neither he nor the Angels depend on worship for power.

Hell couldn't pull it off, though, because nobody would let them.

 

Just one quick nitpick. How do we know that the White God doesn't use the 3.2 billion worshippers he has as a base of power? Last I checked we didn't know that.

 

Because:

1) We know he existed pre-Humanity as Jim spoke of Lucifer's fall which was Pre-Humanity and God is pre-Lucifer. Lash and TN have both made comments that stated themselves to be older then Humanity and TN did so in rage as he was about to kill Harry and he had no reason to lie. Further, Elder Gruff (who is literally unable to lie) spoke of the Denarians as being Old, and he's part of a race of beings the also pre-dates Humanity (Again, Word of God).

2) We know they don't rely on Human worship for power, as Uriel and the Denarians prove. The former is one of the Archangels and the latter are the strongest in Hell after Lucifer. Uriel doesn't show up anywhere in the Bible (or anywhere else, really) and is just a traditional Archangel of the Roman Catholics (?). The latter literally don't get mentioned anywhere ever, except in the DF. Yet they were dangerous, even though no one knew of them, to the point that Lucifer locked them into coins. Being unknown didn't have any effect on their power, then or now. Indeed, they are largely unknown and wish to keep it that way.

3) God has been seperated from the gods pretty much every time he's been mentioned, directly or indirectly, even by Bob.

4) If his power was dependent on worship, he wouldn't be so big on staying uninvolved and leaving things to Free Will.

 

Ryuugi Shi, it seems to me that unless it fits absolutely perfectly with everything in the Dresden-verse that we know so far, then it's bullshit and retarded and an abomination. I guess you don't read much fanfiction, huh? And it's not as if there are zero plotholes in Dresden canon, so what there?

 

From what Ryuugi Shi is saying I take that any full Apocalypse situation is impossible in Dresden-verse. Someone better say it to Jim, because I heard that he plans it as the end of his books.

Also, the White God may not use human worship, but from what I gathered anything else is pure speculation until Jim says straight what is His deal.

 

At this point, it's possible - maybe even probable - that more words have been spent on this argument than Aekiel would have spent describing post-Apocalypse Earth. It sounded like that bit was just the setup to get Dresden over to the Firefly galaxy. I'm not even sure that "Old Earth" would come up at all once the main part of the fic gets under way - save for vague references to "Earth that was" as in the Firefly series.

Ultimately, does Hell have to actually "win" to make this bunny work? Why not just have them as one of the fighting factions in Butcher's apocalypse? In an apocalypse, you don't really need a clear winner to turn the world into a shithole that people might want to escape.

 

^My fucking point exactly.

 

True enough, I just picked what I thought was the mostly likely scenario for turning Earth into a hellhole. Rampaging demons seemed about right for that.

 

It doesn't have to fit perfectly. It does have to make sense, though.

Oh, it's certainly possible. I mean, depending on what you consider an Apocalypse, unbalancing the Faerie Courts could count. So could the Outsiders. There are plenty of ways in the books alone that the world could end.

The Fallen taking over via bullshit fiat isn't one of them, since it would require everyone in the books that wouldn't want that to happen to be retarded.

 

Hey Ryuugi? Y'see how we're all moving on? Yeah, get with that.

 

Or to, you know, lose. I need the Fallen to have won because otherwise Nicodemus would probably be dead, and that just doesn't work for the plot. So my opinion on this can basically be summed up with; suck it up.

But yeah, let's move on from here. I've got the first chapter outlined and will be writing/editing over the weekend. Expect it by Sunday night or Monday morning.

 

Here's the thing; they'd have to be retarded to lose, since they outnumber the Fallen to a hilarious extent and have them outgunned to a hilarious extent.

So my opinion on this can basically be summed up with; the basis of your idea is retarded.