Yet you completely fail to realise that there are beings out there that are powerful enough and willing enough to put themselves in the same corner as Hell and make it an even battle. The Dragons, which want their influence in the world back. The Black Court, which had every fucking supernatural organisation on the planet after it because of how powerful they were (including the other two vampire courts and the White Council - all of which are now weakened or dead). The Fomor, which appear to be something along the lines of Dagon or Cthulhu's spawn. The Ghouls (and Uber Ghouls that can withstand being literally blown to chunks) that just want to eat shit, and possibly some Outsiders too, just for kicks.

That against a weakened White Council, one wounded Faerie Queen, another possibly insane one, the greatly depleted White Court, Heaven, and numerous smaller factions. While Heaven alone may be able to defeat Hell alone, would they really be able to defeat the masses of enemies that would (and they sure as hell would) line up against them? This is the End of Days scenario, dude. We're not talking "If I stand this one out I can always have a go next time". As far as the supernatural world is concerned, this is it. Pick a side and do everything you can to make sure it wins.

Finally, being pre-humanity doesn't make you an omnipotent, omniscient being. Has anyone that isn't a Christian or an Angel (and thus biased) in the Dresdenverse actually stated that the White God is what the Bible claims he is? Demonreach is pre-humanity. The Red King is directly stated as being pre-historical, yet they're not gods (though the Red King claimed to be - Hey look! A parallel!). In the Dresdenverse God didn't really show up much until the Old Testament came about, so where was he before then? Is it really that hard to believe that one of the gods of the era influenced a bunch of radical thinkers in order to gather more followers and thus increase his power? And that eventually his number of followers grew to such an extent that he became the most powerful being in the universe?

 

Are you guys still arguing over this? Really?

 

And what you don't get is that no there aren't. Not only does hell support the end of the universe, but they are also a bunch of liars, backstabbers, and traitors that only look out for themselves; something they prove at every turn.

They resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world. True. But why the fuck would they side with hell? If hell won, they'd do worse. Jim flat out said that the Dragons (specifically Ferrovax, but he also referred to them generally) would never do shit like this, because they don't want the things that would happen too happen.

And that's the problem. That's why your idea is retarded and doesn't work. Your trying to make characters (including entire races) taking actions that it makes no sense for them to take, for no benefit and no reason.

And as a result, was crushed utterly. They are not a threat.

Hahaha, oh wow; you did not do the research at all, huh? The Fomorians are Irish.

Ghouls that die against explosives. To bad Humanity doesn't have any of that, huh?

Outsiders want he end of the Universe and can only be summoned by humans, anyway.

If by weakened, you mean, can throw around Nuclear-level weaponry, then yeah.

Mab's wounded. This doesn't really change anything, though, since she still has all her power.

Nothing says Titania's insane.

Who cares about the White Court? They weren't fighters, anyway.

I like how you skim over Heaven like it's a side note.

But here's the best part. 'Numerous small factions.' Ahahahah, that's funny. Numerous small factions...You mean like the millions and millions and millions of Fae? Like the Six Billion Humans? Like, literally, everyone that doesn't want to live in a Hellhole?

Who knows; it doesn't matter one way or another. All they have to do is stop Hell; modern Humanity could deal with pretty much everyone else one your (stupid) list, even ignoring the billions of allies they have.

Then why the fuck would you pick the side that wants the End of the Universe?

Dresden? Technically, Eb, too. And the Denarians. And, honestly, everyone that has talked about God.

The Red King isn't pre-humanity, though.

Wrong; we have Word of God on the War in Heaven.

Um, since Jim has said he wasn't going that route and nothing, anywhere, in or out of the books supports it? Yeah, I'd say so.

Even if that was the case (which nothing, in or out of the books supports) it wouldn't matter since he can create Archangel level beings with Intellectus, giving him the power to crush pretty much anyone.

 

WHERE?! Where the fuck does it say that? Give me one fucking quote from within the Dresdenverse that the end goal of the Fallen is the destruction of the entire universe?

Also, every fucking race has its own goal that takes precedence over everything else! Mab is out for Winter. The White Council is out for protecting mortal (where it can). The Angels have their own goal in securing free will in the mortal realm, and will do everything in their power to make sure it stays that way.

Why are you making the distinction between Hell and all the other races out there that are completely self-serving but will still take risks in order to secure reward?

Again, WHERE? Show me where he's said this, because this is the first I've bloody well heard of it. Give me a link and I'll accept this whole damned argument, but as it is you just seem to be spouting shit in order to back yourself up.

You obviously don't see the logic in forming alliances, even when they're risky ones, in order to take the greater prize at the end.

Chinese vampires != Black Court. Also, the Black Court numbered at under 100 million, at most, at the height of their power. In this scenario there are hundreds of millions to a billion of them. And they appear within the space of weeks. It would be like the Soviet Union adopting the Blitzkrieg doctrine.

Also, faith, garlic and holy water may be very damn effective against them, but can they stop a car thrown at fifty miles an hour? Because that's what Black Court vampires can do.

You're wrong. I did do the research, and while they have a basis in Irish mythology they also fit very well into the Cthulhu/Dagon mythos. Jim has adjusted them a bit too, to the point where they do very much resemble the spawn of Dagon.

Ghouls that don't die against explosives. Harry wasn't even sure that dumping thousands of tons of rock on top of them would be enough. If they can reconstitute from being made into salsa, what's an explosion going to do to them?

A) A few Outsiders. I'm not talking Old One level, more like He Who Walks Behind.

B) It's not like there aren't Warlocks willing to reach through the Outer Gates out there. Hell, Outsiders have been used in the Council-Red Court war, so they're not that rare to use as weapons.

Believe it or not, yes, the Council is weakened. Before Dead Beat happened most of their Wardens were veterans, now they're mostly newbies. Remember during White Night when Ramirez mentioned that he had some junior Wardens under him, but that they weren't ready for combat against the White Court? The Black Court are worse than them, and more numerous.

Wait. You mean that the Fallen-sponsored attack (probably a single Fallen at that) that led to said wound means nothing? You mean that despite all her power she still managed to get herself hurt and let the Fallen that was at least in the attack get away? You're not giving the Fallen enough credit here, I think.

Ah, my mistake here. Mis-remembered a quote by Jim.

Apart from them being the entire reason the Black Court got took down in the first place. To give you a good analogy for this: Who cares about the President of the United States? Politicians aren't fighters, anyway.

I'm not dismissing their power, I'm just saying that it's not impossible to think that they could still lose.

The millions and millions of Fae are cannonfodder, just like the millions and millions of demons.

As for humans, I forgot to put the note in that they wouldn't be all that positive an influence on things, I think. We would panic on a global scale at the mere thought of an actual Apocalypse happening, and nukes would fly in every direction. Old rivals would take advantage of the situation to take out their worst enemies. China would be the first and worst hit by the Black Court, followed quickly by India. They would spread like a plague. A thinking plague. A plague that can rip tanks to pieces.

As already mentioned, a united humanity could do this. But we're not united, and we wouldn't be until it was too late to fight back. We'd have to resort to nukes, and while that may be enough to battle the Black Court, what about Dragons? Or the Fallen themselves?

Dresden, for all intents and purposes, is in the dark about the great matters of life, death and the afterlife. At least at this point he is. Give me proof of the Denarians referring to him as being omnipotent. Everyone else who has talked about God is either Mab (who made no mention of it), a Christian or an Angel. Not exactly a good spread there.

Where?

Apart from at least one species growing in power from influence alone, sure, no evidence, but that's the joy of fanfiction. After all, Rowling was always going to go the Harry/Ginny and horcruxes route, but that doesn't stop us from taking her creation and twisting it to our desires.

This is the only argument out of this entire post that holds its own weight, though Intellectus isn't exactly a God-given gift. The Mothers both have it, as does Demonreach. Both of those have nothing to do with the White God, as far as I'm aware. A work around could be that as he gained power he upgraded his minions with it too.

But that matters little, in this idea God doesn't involve himself personally. Otherwise it would make for a pretty boring story, whether in mine or in Jim's.

There was evil.

Then God got rid of it.

The End.

 

And remember, by Word of God, Demons now work for hell.

And pretty much all of those races require the Universe to exist to fulfill those goals.

Because (and you seem to be having a really hard time with this basic concept, so ay attention) Hell's goals arecounter to almost everyone elses.

Concerning those who can beat Mab.

Only if Hell wins, there is no prize for anyone. We're all fucked.

What thehee you talking about? I didn't mention the Jade Court anywhere! We know nothing about them!

Yeah, but here's the thing. Those numbers? They have to fucking come from somewhere. And if they got that active, they'd be crushed.

Oh, bullshit; there is no evidence that BC's can do that, and even if the had the strength for it, leverage woudn't allow it.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Here's the thing. At the end of WK? They killed them with an explosion.

Then so what? The Gatekeeper and the Knights have shown themselves mre then able run over large amounts of Outsiders.

Actually, that was a ground breaking occurance that shocked everybody. But more to the point, what do those warlocks get out of having their entire race subverted and murdered/enslaved?

Also, the Wardens and the Gatekeeper exist for shit like this.

Um, no. That's mostly wrong. Granted, huge numbers died and had to be hastily replaced, but the Council is still very powerful.

Ramires said that when talking about alking into a gathering of hundreds of the White Court without any backup.

The Blck Court also haike, ten weaknesses that have been shown to easily screw them over.

Mab won that fight. Also, bullshit; TN was involved, maybe, but it was a Black Council opperation (as far as we know...). And again, Mab won and didn't have to even try hard. Jim said so.

They've crushed the BC. If they have the knowledge, they'll crush their other enemies. WC vamps aren't fightstheir fighting strength has nohing to do with how dangerous they are.

They outnumber their enemy two-to-one, at least, and have three more Achangels.

Many Fae have shown themselves as strong or stronger then Wizards and Vampires and have easy access to Earth. Most demons can't even get to the mortal world without being summoned.

Oh, bullshit. I know we all love Science Fiction Humanity, which is full of idiots, but nukes do not fly at the drop of a hat and the World does not panic whn someone says the End Times are here.

Repeat after me; Humanity is not retarded. If they have bigger things to worry about, they will worry about bigger things. The balance of power that holds nations in check will do so, even if vampires are real.

Both of which would crush them utterly, because (thank you, Bram) they know all their enemies weaknesses and they outnumber them a million to one.

A plague that would be put down as easily as it was back in 1800, or easier, since now we have two hundred plus years of techologic advancement. A plague that dies in sunlight. A plague that cannot rip tanks to pieces (where are you getting this?).

Bullshit; if it got that bad, Humanity would unit in a second, because they don't wanna die.

But it doesn't matter, because it would never get that bad.

Oh, wow, your stupid. Yes, we'll skip to nukes because we can't fight the highly flammable, allergic to sunlight creatures that have to run from people with faith, can cross Thresholds, melt on contact with garlic, can't cross running water, etc. Yeah, because we're incompetent.

We'd go through the black court like they were nothing.

And I can't believe you're so retarded as to think Nukes wouldn't be enough. We would never need nukes. From what we've seen and learnt from Jim, we could kill most of that stuff with a normal modern army.

First of all, you're being stupid, dismissing everyone that would know directly (the Angels) without any proof of them lying.

TN and Lash have both lked abot it.

It's in one of the Threads of the Changes Sub-Forum.

Yes, amazing, one of the many races we've seen have shown traits unique to that race. This must be evidence hat other races also show that trait, despite them not!

WTF

 

Bitch fight has made this once interesting thread painful to read.

 

Ryuugu Shi has 678 posts, and I feel like 600 of them are in this goddamned thread.

 

Just to be an ass, there are only 229 posts in this thread, counting this one.

 

Balls, I had a nice long post lined up, then my computer crashed. Anyway, I'll just line up what my points were:

1) I'll surrender the argument about the Fallen. They're out for the End of the Universe, so I'll probably kill most of them off and hide the coins somewhere, with Nicodemus and Marcone running along with humanity.

2) Dragons stay. In the case of an apocalypse such as this they'd have a lot to gain if they won (which they did), and they're powerful enough to have an effect on it. I'll probably ally them with Summer, as a counter to Mab.

3) Black Court stay. A lot of their weaknesses have less of an effect or just plain disappear as they get more and more powerful, and Stoker himself told us that they get stronger from each person they kill/turn.

As well as that, while faith, holy water and garlic are indeed very damned effective, the Black Court are wholly capable of thinking beyond the smash and pummel tactics that would make them vulnerable to said weaknesses. Plus, whatever weapons humanity uses can be used in turn against them, should they decide to go that route. Finally, they can recoup pretty much any losses through turning prisoners, thus, they're effectively unstoppable should they reach a critical threshold of numbers (my plan was for most of China and India to fall to them in the first few weeks, now I'll just have the BC join in any battle between the two so that they can't force an effective truce).

4) Humanity gets led into WWIII by one faction or another. Probably the Denarians, since they're the easiest to place in this position, possibly a rogue faction of the White Court (like Vittorio Malvora was). Also, think of us uniting this way: If the End of the World were to happen tomorrow, and everyone knew about it, what would happen to South Korea? That is the exact problem we would have in such a situation. Uniting against a greater enemy is all well and good, but pettiness and hatred have far deeper roots.

5) It has been argued that He Who Walks Behind is free to roam Earth at this point, given that he turned up physically during White Night, but was not banished afterwards. He'd be out and about fucking things up too.

 

Only that makes even less sense.

First of all, Summer hates Winter and Winter hates Summer, but both really like the balance. Titania was willing to let her own daughter be killed (Word of God) to maintan it.

Second of all, once again, if the Dragons were that powerful and were united, they wouldn't have been kicked out of the top spot.

Yes, older vampires are stronger then younger ones; we know this. Who fucking cares? We've seen newly born vampires (IMBT) and years old vampires (BR) and centuries old vampires (GP and BR) at work and the difference really isn't that impressive. A competent miltary force, even a small one, would run over all of them, especially if they knew their weaknesses.

Your idea isn't bullshit because it completely unsupported (its only mostly unsupported); it's bullshit because its broken, hilarious overblown, makes no sense, and is a no-limits fallacy.

Doesn't really matter; they can't opperate for most of the day, so we can just hun them down in their sleep and kill them.

So what? They have dozens of weaknesses me don't, we outnumber them, etc.

Only no. You see how the BC got crushed, despite their powers? That was because they got crushed, despite their powers.

Also, new BC vamps aren't that impressive. In BR, one Harry broke out is his faith, he slide its light over a newborn trying to catch a different vamp. The new born burst into flames immediately and died, even though Harry only had it on him for a second. One guy with faith could butcher armies of newborns.

You seem to be underestimating how crippling their weaknesses are. The publishing of those weaknesses turned them from top dogs to nearly extinct. There is a reason for that.

Only that would not happen, because there are millions of people that would stop it, and Jim has said that the goernments of the world have factions for dealing with the Supernatural.

Attempts to do this would be stopped cold.

Only, here's the thing. The end of the world would not be tomorrow, because Humanity is probably the strongest group involved in this fight by several orders of magnitude.

So? This is the guy Harry beat in a fight a dozen power ups ago. The Gatekeeper would eat him raw.

 

Humanity usurped them, true, but if given the chance would they not try to take back the top spot? Western Dragons aren't exactly known for their patience or turning the other cheek, and Dresdenverse Dragons are basically semi-divine entities with the personalities of Western Dragons.

As for the Faerie Courts: You remember that there was a war in the fourth book, right? The way I picture the Fae Courts is that they each try to overcome the other, but are constantly maintained in balance like two equally skilled chessmasters. They're just searching for the one weakness that would give them a good enough advantage, one mistake that would let them win. Balance between the Faerie Courts, in my mind, isn't so much a planned thing as it is a coincidence of two equally intelligent and powerful beings dodging each others' attempts to take advantage of the other.

Not really. Mavra (who I know is an older vampire, but bare with me) was more than capable of setting Harry up, concealing herself under a perfect veil (despite being locked down by Blackstaff McCoy) and acting freely during the day. At the same time.

Fact is that Mavra could have killed everyone in that building at any point in time, if she had wanted to, but acquiring the Word of Kemmler was more important to her so she didn't.

Besides which, what competent military force are you talking about? The ones in China, most of whom are conscripts? The ones in Africa, who are mostly villagers drawn into conflicts between warlords? Or the ones in the Western World that don't believe in vampires?

If someone told you right now that Dracula was leading an army of vampires to take over the world, would you believe them? Even if they showed you video footage of them ripping people in half? That's the problem with the masquerade, which Harry neatly laid out during Dead Beat. Butters is an intelligent man, of this there is no doubt, but even he tried to rationalise nearly being killed by the reanimated corpse of his co-worker. That is the power of the masquerade, and it works to the advantage of every single supernatural species out there, except us.

We have Word of God that magic has no limits. So by your reasoning the Dresdenverse is broken.

Most of them can't, true, but using the pyramid scheme idea that wouldn't last for long. Aside from that, humans are squishy. A newborn BC vampire won't react well to the faith of a true believer, but are true believers really that common? And would that one (or few) man be able to truly counter the hordes of vampires that would make there way through the streets? It would be a zombie apocalypse scenario, but with zombies that can crash through brick walls without injury.

They have dozens of weaknesses, but we are physically frail. Compared to pretty much everything in the Dresdenverse, vanilla humans are little more than insects. Our only strength is in numbers, which is something that also works to the advantage of BC vamps, because they can turn any number of us to their cause.

They got crushed because everyone dogpiled them into submission. Every faction bar vanilla humans that joined in said Black Court hunt is now weakened to the point where a Black Court uprising could be pulled off. Especially if they have powerful allies to back them up.

Again, men of that quality of faith are few and far between. Remember that the two people we've seen go up against vampires with faith alone are Harry and Michael. The rest had to go with guns and/or stiletto heels.

True enough, I just think that sheer numbers has a lot to do with it too. The Black Death culled the human population of Europe to a third of what it was. In two years.

He's mentioned that the Library of Congress has a branch that deals with the supernatural, but I find it hard to believe that the governments themselves have much to do with magic. In an out-of-story sense it would mean that Jim would have to tie in a ton of political shit with magic (which is ripe for controversy). In-story though, it would mean a lot of would be politicians would go for black magic, which leads to a ton of problems for the White Council, thus I'd say the safest way to go is to keep government and magic separate. It fits with the Council's modus operandi too. Maintain the masquerade.

Like they did with Kemmler, you mean?

We're the strongest group when we're united true, but if we're busy making war on one another are we really that hard to take down? Divide and conquer is an age old strategy because it damn well works, and it was used by Kemmler in his attempt to use the Darkhallow.

Yes. That Harry beat ages ago. Harry that has power over Outsiders. Harry that is dead. Harry who is dead. The only other person we know has that power is Elaine, who is beholden to Summer.

The rest of the world has a fuck ton of problems when it comes to Outsiders, even when they're not Knights of the Old Ones. Remember that it took the God Damn Merlin himself casting a ward just to stop some Outsiders (who I'm assuming are mooks at this point since they weren't named) from taking out a whole lotta Wardens during... Proven Guilty? Outsiders are a big fucking deal in the Dresdenverse, to the point where only a few people in the entire world are able to face them head-to-head.

 

Um, we've seen exactly one Dragon on screen, and his personality is 'bored.' He may not have been patient, but when faced with the killer of another Dragon, he was interested, but didn't seem to mind.

Also, you keep missing the reason why the Dragons are upset; Humanity upset the natural order. They are upset because the natural order was upset...which this would not fix. It would just change who was on top.

Word of God. They had to go to war, because the Balance was upset and they didn't know how to fix it, but they don't want to go to war. They don't want the balance to be upset.

...So? Mavra is stated by Word of God to be one of the Strongest BC Vampires alive and she has survived only because she's god at being unnoticed and not drawing attention to herself (and also getting out of town quickly).

Her plan worked against Harry, because she had proof of Murphy breaking the Law and because Harry wasn't looking right for her at the time. A military wouldn't do either of those. In fact, they'd probably do what Kincaid had suggested and burnt down the building, in which case Mavra would have died. Or at least walked in with preists and soldiers. Either way, they'd have done better then Harry.

They don't even ned to walk into the building. Remember, if the sun is up, Vampires can't outside. And at night, just get across a threshold.

By competent, I mean 'have read Dracula.'

You forget the rest of what Harry said. Nobody believed in Gorillas...until someone provided a corpse.

If they can provide proof, then Humanity will believe it. Just like we believed in gorillas and that the Earth was round. And if it's life or death, we'll believe a hell of a lot fast.

Especially since, you know, DV Humanity believed it just fine in the 1800s when they hunted down and butchered the Black Court.

Also, Word of Jim:

You misunderstand what he said (I was the person who asked him that question, by the way). He said that Magic has no limits...if you have enough of it. It's self limiting.

An idea that's still bullshit.

A fact that didn't stop them from killing the Black Court.

If vampires and demons and whatever were crawling out of the woodwork, there would be. But it doesn't matter, because you don't have to believe in God. You just have to believe in something. See also, Harry. And people that do that wouldn't be uncommon.

Yes. Remember, True Faith = instant death for newborns.

And die instantly in sunlight or in response to faith.

Doesn't matter. Human combat has been built around that fact.

And are still top dogs.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Jim has said many times that it's not just our numbers. Our ludicriously overpowered weapons got us the top spot, too.

Word of God:

Also, as you can see, while the BC spreads quickly, it's not nearly as fast as you think.

No. Faith isn't that uncommon because it can, remember, be faith in anything. God, Buddha, Science, Magic; anything.

...And?

The government has a branch to deal will magic. You just mentioned it.

Why? And, remember, most people don't have that much magic.

That was pre-WWII and thus pre-Nukes.

That says it all, really. If you don't understand MAD, there is no hope for you.

First of all, in the 1800s, the book Dracula was not published worldwide (I don't think...). The Black Court was still crushed.

Second of all, in the age of Nuclear Nations, MAD stops shit like that.

Yes, because that makes sense; the person assigned to deal with Outsides (who set up a ward that held off thousands of them) cannot deal with Outsiders. :facepalm

Also, Michael proved the swods can deal with Outsiders just fine.

Technically, there is no proof that weapons don't work on Outsiders; they've only been said to be hard to affect with magic (which is why magic users have a hard time affecting them).

But even if there was, the Gatekeeper exists for this shit.

 

Holy shit.

Forgive me DLP. I knew not what I was doing.

 

Don't feel bad Taure, we get to watch two masters of the internet arguement at work. I'm tempted to jump in at times, then I realize it's best to stand back and watch my betters do it.

In other news:

This is the only time the Mormons, the Westboro Baptists or hippies would come in handy.

Am I the only one wanting to write a crackfic with prayer circles being used to kick the BC out of the Bible Belt now?*hmm...



/Scrib wonders how toxic pure Christ!troll belief would be to vampires, and the rest of the environment.

 

I am cleaning up the 'DF fanfic ideas' thread, which has suffered two massive derails.

The thread title is my best approximation of what everyone was fighting about. I am sure there is a better title out there. PM it to me and I will change it.

Other than that, any discussions pertaining to...w.e the fuck you lot were fighting over go in here.