From the Fawkes' Gift thread:

This is incredibly frustrating for me. WBA is a forum that I use to get early feedback on work before it is released to the public at large, so that I can polish the fic. It is not meant to be a generic hosting area for fanfic reading. I don't want random people reading my stories in their WBA state, only established DLPers.

(For this reason the WBA thread has a different title to the fic on FF.Net)

I have noticed, also, that when I update the thread is filled with members whose names I've never seen before. The membership restriction is too loose -- people are joining just to read WBA.

Parasites and spies.

Obviously I don't have the ability to control who sees my thread, but do the mods have some kind of easy way to limit access? Maybe on the basis of postcount? 100 posts or more to view?

The only alternative is to use an off-site forum like Google Groups and invite people who I am happy to see the fic before publication.

 

Just make a group on DLP if you really want only a set select group of people reading your stuff.

 

You're being an asshole, and that's putting it mildly.

I'm not referring to your general air of superiority in canon matters, nor do I contest your knowledge on writing or DLP lore - you know your stuff where it matters.

With that in mind, I can't believe that you're the one starting this bullshit thread.

There was never any promise that your work will be read and commented to your liking.
There was never any implication that the feedback will be of a certain quality.
There was never any implication that only the old guard would post in your thread.

Yet, you assume all these things, and are surprised that there are people lurking just for stories?

Yes, I know that many people joined just to read the Santi's work, and most of them weren't a welcome addition, but I've joined for the very same reason. I'm sure there would prove to be a handful of members who registered only because they couldn't see the stories they wanted to.

The lurkers don't do anything bad. They sometimes even comment on the stories in WbA - trying to be actually helpful.

Personally, I have more problems with people who start a hundred threads with "What is DLP's opinion on canon Harry?" or "Just what is DLP's problem with Slash?".
Hell, I'd even wager to say that people who join to read the WbA are a lot more useful than people who join to lose a debate about canon material to you - on the whole especially.

A bad lurker leaves no comments - and you will never see him in your life, and a bad member posts shit everywhere.

Hell, the very same thread had a huge talk about why and how should Dumbledore!Harry have or not have a boner while groping Ginny, and carrying over useless discussions whether transfigurations are permanent or not - when it had absolutely zero relevance to the very same story.

Want to have a thread free of that - have a separate story thread. Want to get advanced feedback, start a group with personal invitations for people that actually give you feedback you want. Hell, give a selected number of people links to your google doc, and then post the result in WbA. You should fucking know this already, when do you say you have joined this community?


The poster in question has 11 posts as of today. All of them in your story thread. He's trying to give you feedback. Don't like his feedback? Stop being a pussy - there's tens of weird people coming with weird stories and getting harsh feedback. Granted, the feedback is usually constructive, but...

Damn, fuck it, let's see what was THAT bad for your pride that you had to whine about it to the whole forum.

In his first fucking post, he gives you an actual useful feedback. He points out a potential continuity error, and points out that it's weird that Harry never question an origin of an important plot related item - where I vaguely rmember Hermione explaining something about how she found the Dumbledore's hidden books in canon.

Yes, you reply to that in a well thought out response, but it was a general attempt to help.

Then, he carries on on that topic - but doesn't do anything destructive. Meanwhile, you ignore Syed, and The Erotic advetures of S who both give posts that have nothing you claim to be expecting from the posters there.

There's also a discussion on canon/cannon mistake/misprint/uneducatedness joke that got old years before I registered here - and all of the other shitty useless chatter. From members that would easily pass your requirement for the readership by post number.

Next, Corvus replies to another Syed's comment. Nothing wrong here, if he's new enough to not know not to feed Syed too much.

His coment on Molly/Ms.Weasley is weird, I'll give you that. But obviously your three word reply has ruined half of your day.

Next up, Corvus replies to someone else. Nothing special here.
He's simply over-analysing Molly/Mrs.Weasley angle, and you know that - and there's no harm in it, he does point out the usages, and to be truthful, you still might get something from this. Spare another thought even to reassure yourself that everything is fine.

Heck, there were loads of stupider posts in that thread.

Corvus lasts three posts are nothing special. He doesn't raise the question about magical cores, if your reply implies that you understood him that way. He simply points out that if in your own words "the elder wand was lost on Grindewald" (not a direct quote though), does that imply that Dumbledore would use it better? Because of the talent or some innate measure of power?

And he doesn't get into a needless discussion as soon as he notices that it is exactly that.

Then you come and create this thread.

Bitchy much, Taure?

I know I'm a Hypocrite for writing this post, but god dammit, why the hell do you need to whine like that.

Don't like the posts of the people, put them on the ignore list. Want to have an exact readership, give out links for select people, or create a group.

God, and they let you teach actual people in Chile - grow the fuck up.

/post 666


EDIT: Way to miss the point back at you. Corvus was an example, especially since it was his post that was quoted. He's a new member - and one of the people who shouldn't see the thread by your recogning. For the other 99% of the members you dreamed of, you never fucking see them. What's the problem?

 

Way to miss the point. It's not about Corvus, it's about the phenomena that his post highlights which is widespread and systemic: people joining to read and not comment. Such members add nothing -- not even a tangential discussion about canon vs. cannon (which Sesc told me he was going to delete) anb abuse the WBA feature of the forum.

You highlight how long I've been on the site, so fine, let me tell you what WBA is for: feedback. WBA is not there for people to share their story. It's there for writers to improve their stories prior to general release. There is a reason why it was made members-only: a deliberate attempt to stop people from reading the stories without contributing to their development. It's supposed to be a private forum for DLP to discuss their stories without a general audience.

I'm not complaining about the quality of the feedback. I'm not complaining about getting feedback from non-established members. I'm complaining about the 99% of DLP members who join just to read and leave no feedback. Such people should stay on FF.Net.

Anyway, I hope you had fun looking like an idiot.

Edit: as for groups:

1. I shouldn't have to make a group in order to do something the WBA is supposed to do.

2. Groups lack certain functionality general threads have. Most particularly, they lack notification systems.

 

You mean the phenomenon called "Lurking?" That thing that's been around since, I don't know, DLP first started?

 

Lurking in WBA in particular.

And yes.

A problem having existed for a long time doesn't mean that you can't try to fix it. This is far from the first time this issue has occurred to me. It's just the first time that I've been bothered to do anything about it.

 

No offense man, but that's retarded. Do you know how many people read shit without commenting? You can't force people to read and leave feedback. Even if you limited the WBA to members with >100 posts -- that doesn't gurantee they're gonna leave feedback either. So what's the difference between "established" members "lurking" in WBA vs. newbies?

Stupid thread is stupid...

 

I really can't imagine how people reading your work without leaving feedback has any impact on you at all.
Only a very few give any feedback, because most don't feel they have anything to add. I don't like commenting just to say "I like this", I would rather point out spelling mistake/comment on things I might not like. But mostly I don't stumble upon a mistake to correct or something that irritates/doesn't make sense to me, and therefore I don't leave a comment.
If it's a question about you not wanting to show an unfinished/unpolished story to everyone, then follow Nauro's advice and make a group or something.

 

Not sure why Nauro edited rather than replied.

The problem is that they're seeing an unfinished product. All of us write for other people, not ourselves -- if we wrote for ourselves alone, we would see no need to publish what we write online. So we write for other people to read our work, and we want the work they read to be the best example of our writing it can be. I don't want the general public observing my writing process.

WBA is supposed to be private. If DLP has changed policy and decided it's not private, fine. I'll do what I said in the OP and go to Google Groups. But if DLP does continue to maintain the policy of WBA privacy, then something needs to be done to enforce it.

In which case, you should not be browsing WBA, which is a feedback forum not a fanfiction archive. You don't go there to read peoples' fics, you go there to help people improve their fics. If that's not your motivation, don't enter. Wait for it to appear on FF.Net.

 

You can't force people to leave feedback. End of story. If you don't like that, use google docs.

Better yet, if you don't like that concept, you're probably better off not writing, since the majority of your readers aren't going to tell you shit.

 

I'm quite happy with people not leaving feedback -- on FF.Net, which is where people go to read. (Or Patronus Charm).

People not leaving feedback in WBA is abusing the forum. There's a reason why the PWWP thread was shut: people were just reading and chatting about the fic, but not leaving feedback. You have a recent demonstration right there of the mods enforcing correct use of WBA.

 

How is lurking a problem? If someone wants to join, read, and say nothing, what is your problem with that? Let them. They're not harming you in any way, and you give less than shit about their opinion anyway. Chances are yours is just one in hundreds they have read or will read, and won't remember it or think of it or mention it to anyone.
If he actually says something and it's not retarded to seven hells, then that's a good thing, as Nauro said. It can lead to something potentially meaningful, and occasionally spawns good members. If you don't like what they say, ignore them. Easy as that.

I have no idea what bothers you, really. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best, considering everything.



Edit: Ninja'd several times over, but I still think you're massively overreacting.

 

I'm not sure that it's desirable to limit WBA as you're asking even though there have been bigger problems than lurkers (e.g., when people plagiarize stories out of WBA, as happened a few months back). Often, lurkers come here and stay and eventually join the community. Before your story was The Santi's, and before that, Joe's stories and Shezza's. Each brought in a fresh crop of members. Some of them didn't even suck.

And lurking on the site has always been encouraged, as it's highly preferable to having users post inane crap that doesn't belong, which is what we're likely to see if we were to implement a "you can't visit WBA until you have X posts" policy.* Some even come here, lurk for awhile, and eventually get the bug to start writing, thus improving the fandom. (This is how I got my own start back in the day.)

* Perhaps I misunderstand--are you asking to be able to hand-pick those allowed to read your story? That seems like a lot of hassle.

 

So really you are choosing to be annoyed over them aren't you? As you said they do nothing, they are invisible. You have to go out of your way to find them. Carry on ignoring them like everyother author on WBA and pay attention to the members who do add something to the discussion.

I myself joined to read the chapters of Heartlands of Time and Awaken Sleeper that weren't on ffn, and stuck around for the general lack of stupidity. Sorry for going against your very dear fundamentals.

EDIT: How does this apply to year old threads? Dont't read because you can't comment?

 

No, that's the last resort which I want to avoid. The ability to hand pick people already exists and is, as you say, a hassle.

What I want to do is restrict the readership of my unfinished work to the DLP community. I.e. I want to exclude guests who happen to have usernames.

 

For what purpose? That still won't force anyone to comment. There will still be lurkers... So I'll ask again, wtf is the difference between an established member lurking vs a newbie?

 

An established member is part of the community. If they read and don't comment I can trust that at least there's a reasonable chance they might have commented if they had the inspiration to do so, or might comment in the future.

With lurkers there is a significantly lower level of trust that they respect the community as established members do. I expect established members to self-enforce the "dont want to comment, don't read" WBA function.

I comment in basically every WBA thread I enter.

 

Okay, that's fucking retarded

Edit: Seriously, man. That is really dumb.

 

I think I qualify as a lurker here. Low post count and all that. I see Taure's problem and I can understand why he is upset.

But I am also thinking, as some others mentioned, about the useless comments in your thread. They are form established members and are totally inane. Why haven't I given much or no feedback on most of the stories? Because I do quite enjoy them and the mistakes I usually find, are or were already adressed by other people. Also, English is not my first language so I am not sure if my understanding of grammar would be any help. And correcting spelling errors while I read is too much of a hassle to mark and then quote the whole thing in a post. Google docs would be more practical.

And on the point of restricting access to your stories. I have been on FF.net for some time, and registered here some time ago as well. And I seem to have read all the interesting stories on FF (my interest at least). And that's why I am here. New, interesting, innovative stories, that are being updated (hopefully)!

I really respect your writing Taure, it is probably one of the best I have read in terms of fanfiction, but I would be quite sad if I couldn't enjoy your stories anymore regardless if they are finished or not. It is 900% better than 99.9% of the crap an FF.net.

Cheers

 

I don't spend much time in WbA these days, having rather fallen out of the habit of reading fics - I've got updates from last year in my inbox, which I still haven't read - but in the fics I have read, and in the thread for Hallowed, it seems to be the case that it's mostly non-established members posting the most, and certainly the most constructive posts.

I think you perhaps forget that there are a lot of established members (whatever that means; post count? Time on the site?) who don't actually read that much fanfic these days, but will dip into WbA when a similarly established member updates or starts a new fic. Take a look at the amount of fics posted by newer members that have barely any commentary, and none from established members. If you introduced a further barrier on viewing WbA, I think you'd find it would quickly become something of a wasteland, aside from updates by the big name authors. And that's really not helpful to the forum as a whole.