Ah, seems I got my canon a bit mixed up with fanon. I liked the reveal in PS, it was nicely done. I just thought Harry was still distrustful of Snape in Ootp, but he never actually agrees with Ron when he mentions it.

Guess my point is I should reread the books again

 

Hermione was convinced of Snape's guilt at one point, too; specifically after the cursed broom incident.

Convinced enough to set her suspect on fire. :fire

People tend to forget little things like Hermione fingering (thus launched a thousand smutfics) the wrong suspect, Harry figuring out who Flamel was, and so on.

Instead, they love to harp on Harry suspecting the wrong person... as if that isn't a key story element that makes a (read: every) mystery suspenseful.

 

Wasn't the Flamel thing more ridiculous blind luck than actual detective work? He stumbled into a chocolate frog card and remembered a name.

Moving on to when he's actually older and his lack of forethought is less easy to forgive, what about the Second Task in the GOF? He had to literally be handed the answer to submerge the egg in the bath. First by Cedric, I guess I can excuse that, but then by Moaning Myrtle while in the tub. At that point, I KNOW I'd have at least tried submerging it.

The most damning one that pops up is the one at the end of OOP, which lead to Sirius' death. Yes, yes, only family left in the world, but so ridiculously and obviously a trap.

This isn't meant to make Harry sound stupid. I mean, he's averagely clever, for a kid.
But that's about it. Detective, he ain't.

 

They searched for where they thought the information would be in a giant library. They assumed Flamel's name would come up in the last century, considering someone wanted the item now, and Hagrid said it was a matter between Dumbledore and (still living) Flamel. Stumbling upon the information is a normal trope in any sort of fiction. You as the reader don't know any information that the character is reading in the library. Wouldn't it be boring for you to be given a question "who's Nicholas Flamel?" only to have the characters be like "Lol, I found it in google!"?

I'll answer that for you. Yes, Gabrinth.

Cedric was given the answer by Crouch Jr. It's hard to say why anyone would assume a shrieking egg should be submerged so that you could listen to it properly... More than that, do you remember how Cedric told Harry about the egg... "Just take it into the bath... and soak on it for a bit" or something of that nature. When Harry told Cedric about the task, he said "It's a dragon, yes, ouch".

I guess if Cedric had just told him, though, we'd be without all those nice, smutty bath scenes (lol, they're all horrible. I'm lying).

Finally, I'd like to say that you have a terribly bothersome sense of hindsight without recognizing that it's more accurate than Mad-eye Moody's bloody eye. Yes, looking back on everything, it's so obvious. That, my friend, is a mystery well done. HOW DID WE NOT SEE IT? IT'S SO OBVIOUS!

Elementary, my dear.

 

Another common trope in detective stories.

Admittedly, I don't know much about Sherlock Holmes, but he's probably the only detective who's very nearly shown to recognize every damn clue for exactly what it is, the moment he sees it.

Hermione's habit of looking through every book in the library to find an answer isn't much different from Harry's method, it's just more tedious, takes more up front effort, and will eventually yield results... assuming what she's looking for is in a book to which she does have access: Casting a net that wide means it's only a matter of time. Luck, on the other hand, has no upper time limit before it kicks in... which may be never.

I guess if you know you've seen the name before and you know you didn't see it in a book, because you haven't cracked one open that your walking-encyclopedia of a friend hasn't already, then there's no point in looking there.

I think Harry takes a lot of knocks in canon for the sake of fleshing out other characters. I'm all for character development, but JKR is so very miserly with her page-count that if you aren't Harry, Ron, or Hermione, you're probably only going to get a spotlight shone on you if you're sharing a scene with them.

So, Moaning Myrtle gets a bit more page time at the cost of Harry looking like he can't figure out that the reason he was told to take the egg to the bath is to dunk it in the water.

And, Cedric (who was also handed the answer) told Harry to go there in the first place so he could be shown as a nice guy and a good sport: This gives us more time with the character and makes us like him more, both things designed to make his death have more impact, since otherwise all we know about him is he is dating the girl Harry has a thing for, he's a seeker, and his father has a somewhat obnoxious habit of bragging about him.

One must also take into consideration that there's no rule that says Harry wouldn't have come up with the answer on his own, it's just that someone told him before he did.

That, and he also had a bit more to worry about than the other competitors. They had two things to worry about: Schoolwork, and the tasks. Harry had schoolwork, the tasks, trying to figure out who entered him in the contest (and, thus, was trying to kill him and why); and, in hindsight, we know Karkaroff, while a former death eater, was perfectly happy to stay on the down low and keep his nose clean, but all Harry knows is that he is/was a death eater and Sirius's foreboding/paranoid warnings about him... so he also has that to worry about.

Harry seems to have a pretty full schedule, every school year, what with trying to, you know, live. It's a wonder he gets any schoolwork done.

A lot of the mysteries in the HP series only seem to require a few clues to crack. Either you devote more pages to each mystery (they were already rather lengthy, for children's books) for the sake of making them more complex, you have Harry solve everything himself (making him a Gary-Stu and contradicting how he needs his friends and loved ones, to be victorious), or you have a lot of moments where his friends hand him the answers, so that they get a moment to show their talents... at the cost of Harry sometimes looking almost comically inadequate.

Maybe not so obvious in a world where visions and prophecies are real. Perhaps if Harry's go-to man for info on Voldemort hadn't completely shut him out, that year, as though nothing at all were wrong, he'd have been more suspicious of his own visions.

Let's not forget that Harry did try to confirm whether Sirius was at #12 or not, and was told that he was gone. He takes a lot of shit in fan fic (and fan analysis) for causing Sirius's death because he didn't check shit out, but he actually did everything he could to confirm the facts (while still leaving time to get to the Ministry before Sirius could be killed), in a situation where no adults were willing to help. Or, at least, he'd satisfied (of all people) Hermione's requirements for due diligence, once he'd made the floo call.

Besides, let us not forget that just because you know it's a trap, doesn't mean they're not going to kill the bait. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Edit: Partially ninja'ed by Gabrinth.

 

I don't know what system they use in the Hogwarts library but there is no way Nicolas Flamel doesn't appear in the 'recent' books. The frog card says he worked with Dumbledore on the twelve uses of dragons blood. Now unless Dumbledore did that work before he went to Hogwarts that means it was most certainly done in the 20th century.

From there it would be a small hop-skip and a jump to Nicolas Flamel, renowned 600 year old alchemist.

This is why I don't think Hermione has such godly research skills as often assumed. If they basically just went to the library and read all the books under 'F' then that's hardly research. They already have a concrete connection to Dumbledore, why not look into his achievements? Heyho dragons blood. Heyho Flamel.

Yeah, ok, so I'm bashing a 12 year-old's research skills. :awesome

 

Among the books that they looked through to find Flamel:

• Great Wizards of the Twentieth Century, or Notable Magical Names of Our Time
• Important Modern Magical Discoveries
• A Study of Recent Developments in Wizardry

Apparently the Dumbledore/Flamel team-up didn't merit a mention... or the books were still too old to cover it (or whoever is in charge of acquisitions is shite at their job - I'm looking at you, Pince).

Hehe. This actually brings up an interesting line of inquiry: Just how new are the books at Hogwarts?

In sixth year potions, they were using the same text Snape used when he was a student. Granted, he's only in his early thirties when Harry is a first year, but still...

I would think potions is a field that would see more innovation than transfiguration or charms, and certainly more than ancient runes. And, history... ignoring that the teacher is dead and only talks about goblin rebellions, the assigned books must not cover much in the way of recent events, given that Harry has to find out virtually everything about Voldemort and the death eaters from people who lived through it.

[Edit: You've got to hand it to that ass, Lockhart: He probably had the newest books in the school's required text list... even if they weren't schoolbooks and the experiences were stolen.]

It became something of a bad joke that, in some underfunded schools in the 80s, there were science textbooks that talked about, "If we ever put a man on the moon..."

Well, hello, this is the future speaking: Been there, done that. :facepalm

Much like Harry, Hogwarts suffers a lot for the sake of plot convenience. We're told by the author that Hogwarts is the bestest magical school everty-ever, but we are shown shit teachers, broken rules systems, a caretaker that is an outspoken proponent of the sadomasochistic torture of students, security holes big enough to walk a troll through, cursed teaching positions, an ancient monster in the sub-basement, a menagerie of killer animals walking free a few feet beyond the quad, a spirit of chaos that harasses both the staff and students, a headmaster that doesn't temper any of his teachers' flagrant excesses (Hagrid, you mean well, but you're going to get someone killed)...

So, we have shit security to allow dramatic threats into the school, and a basilisk for the hero to slay, and a library that's shit when it comes to researching the puzzle of the week or the villain of the series, for the sake of keeping the mystery alive. A safe, helpful, Hogwarts (you know, like a school is supposed to be) is a Hogwarts that kills all the fun of the story.

This includes a library apparently so lacking in new material that it is entirely devoid of any mention of the terrorists that nearly destroyed their way of life, a decade ago, or how the vanquisher of Grindelwald once teamed up with a functionally ageless alchemist so famous even the muggles know who he is and what he does (to the point that the Statute of Secrecy shat itself in panic), in order to find uses for a beast that, otherwise, is probably too dangerous and expensive to merit even keeping the species alive (we can make our gardening gloves out of other shit, thank you).

There was at least one library book that mentioned Flamel and, bearing in mind that it had Flamel's current age written in it, was actually a recent book (apparently one of the only ones). Hermione had already borrowed the doorstop of a book from the library for 'a little light reading' and had forgotten about it. Given the book's size, I can only assume she hadn't reached the alchemy section of the book, yet, or something.

Clearly that massive library is mostly known for its extensive collection of Martin Miggs: The Mad Muggle comic compilations, Mad Libs books, and twenty-five copies of the entire Flowers in The Attic series, since school-age girls can't seem to get enough of that shit.

Harry burned their selection of Choose Your Own Adventure books because they were beginning to feel too fucking autobiographical.

This kind of stuff is what passes for the thought exercises that keep my brain from rusting over.

 

Um. Wow. That was long and seemed to go to an entirely different topic.

Still, it made a lot of sense and I liked it. Nothing particular to say on it, or against it--it was not an argument as much as thinking outloud.

...I honestly can't tell if you're trying to mock me or something, or if you're trying to explain something. XD

However, if you're saying that's just hindsight bias in me speaking, you really need to think back on what your immediate thoughts were upon reading those passages of OOP. Or any mystery I brought up, really. If you weren't immediately able to tell where it was going, then...I guess maybe you were 10 or so when you read them. Which is fine, it's the age demographic for the books after all.
Because ultimately, Warlocke has a point. Not a single one of the mysteries in the Potter series ever contained anything that wasn't seen coming miles away.
Cept...Maybe the Elder Wand? I'll need to think on that cause that still makes me blink and go 'what' when I rmemeber it.

 

lol, I see what you did there.

 

Bits of this have been covered, but whatever:

Book 1: Group effort. Credit where it's due, Harry did come up with some vital info to solve the main mystery.

Book 2: Hermione solves a mystery. Harry stabs a large snake.

Book 3: Snape accidentally solves a mystery, but gets knocked out before he can learn of that fact. After Snape/Ron/Harry/Hermione all bollocks things up, Dumbledore spoon-feeds Hermione a solution, for which Harry acts only as a Patronus-spewing rearguard.

Book 4: Barty Crouch Jr solves a series of mysteries that he helped set up to begin with.

Book 5: Harry tries to solve a mystery, but stumbles into a trap instead. Despite specifically be warned with a timely, 'Hey Harry, ya think this might be a trap?'

Book 6: Harry actually solves a mystery, but can't make anyone believe that might be the case. Sets up surveillance, does good investigation, but ultimately fails to actually find a workable solution in time. Not really his fault, but not really a success either.

Book 7: Dumbledore posthumously solves a series of mysteries through obscenely roundabout and unintuitive clues, half of which no one realizes were clues after they would have been useful.



Harry is many things, and honestly is a perfectly good protagonist for the sort of story the HP series is. But Sherlock he ain't. Canon Harry is brave, loyal, and surrounded with friendly and talented people, but frankly he's not that bright. Intelligent!Auror!Harry is a fanon trope at best.

 

You don't have to address my comment with something that only proves my point. I know you want to dismiss his intelligence, and that's fine, it doesn't matter to me that you see it that way. I just don't. You can minimize his efforts all you want, it seems to be the trend here anyway.

I never said he was Sherlock . . . but he did grow up to be something like a detective, and he made efforts at investigation in PS, CoS, PoA, GoF, HBP, and DH. Warlocke and Gabrinthe have responded to these points, so I won't say anything else.

EDIT: Stumbles into a trap? You might want to at least read OotP again, if you're not going to read the thread. It's been mentioned multiple times that he exhausted every available option before heading to the Ministry.

Oh, let's dismiss his success then. That's just so much better for the point you were trying to make, right?

 

What was this thread about again?

 

I'm not sure continuing to talk about H/Hr v R/Hr is any better of a thread, though I do agree there's been a huge tangent.

Anyways, Hermione is the only main character in the story who can be a non-gay lover for Harry. It's natural that readers want the vagina-wielding character they've grown the most attached to with the main character, who they mentally associate with. Unless of course they hate her guts, which is the other reaction to a female lead with a lot of characterization.

At least she isn't Ginny no-personality Weasley.

 

Speaking of Ginny, how accurate is this?

 

Only? Any reason you don't include Luna there?
Yes, it's my OTP, but I'm not attacking you over that, I'm legitimately curious why you don't consider her a possiblity.

Read the title, this is the Real HP Plotholes thread.

...
Wait a tick.

Depends on your take on the character. Only half-accurate in my opinion.
I maintain time and time again that Ginny is not a character. She's basically Daenerys Targaryen (from the HBO series, not the books), a narrative device to move the story along and break momentum when needed.
It's not her fault, Rowling just can't write romance for crap.

 

Presumably because Luna, for all of how likable and interesting she is, doesn't really have complete characterization beyond her general quirkiness and lighthearted manner. There simply isn't enough time dedicated to her in canon, which is basically true of all characters beyond Harry, Hermione, Ron, Draco, Snape, and Dumbledore (and arguably Voldemort).

Once you get beyond those characters, everyone else either only has a few scenes at most, or the ones they have don't tend to reveal a ton about their characters. After the above, Neville, Luna and the Weasley Twins are probabnly the most fleshed out characters. Than you get people like Fleur and Bill and Ginny etc.

I think part of the issue is that the Harry/Ron/Hermione trio is so insular in the books. We just don't get to see many other characters, because they just don't interact with them.

But Luna is undoubtedly the best choice for pairing Harry with an at least quasi-developed character that isn't Hermione (or the almost blank slate that is Ginny). And all Luna really needs is a little bit of fleshing out for her character, it isn't like she's one of the Patil Twins or something.

 

@Sloth ^ that

Pretty much, Hermione is more natural than any other character for readers to desire to be with Harry. Other readers simply accepted that Rowling didn't seem to want to go down that path, and that's why Harry/Ginny and Harry/Hermione are the main pairings.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'm a Harry/Luna shipper as much as I like Harry/Hermione. I'm not the 'OTP' type, in fact I didn't even know of that saying before this thread, but I think that Luna is a great foil to Harry's brooding quality, and she would probably do better than Hermione at getting to whatever depths of emotional distress Harry actually has after his 'abuse' (read: neglect) at the Dursley's.

 

Yeah, I guess it's hard to argue with that one. What little we did saw of them together went miles ahead of anything Harry did with any of the other girls.
I always wanted to find good-written fanfiction of the two that showed how the story would unfold with them together...but it is SO hard.

As an aside, regarding that clarification: Are you saying that you don't see neglect as abuse?

 

Personally, I'm fine with the Canon Pairings, largely because I don't particularly care about most of them. The only one that genuinely troubles me is Tonks/Lupin, and even that's because of the age difference.

Having said that, I think Harry/Luna is the best non-Canon pairing out there. I don't Ship them, since I am not that attached to Ships in general, but I do think there is some nice chemistry between them, especially in OOTP. I thought that conversation near the end of the book a good moment for them, and Rowling could have continued that relationship in HBP (instead of that "roaring lion" bullshit. If you want Harry and Ginny to date, fine. But the way you described Harry's new feelings for her made it seem like a bad combination of hormones and indigestion).