How gross is Jim Butcher is when it comes to writing women.

There’s commentary about how a girl can “make her nipples erect on command” or how a girl is “wearing nothing but flower petals, and is gorgeous” even though she’s less than 19 years old. During one scene, Dresden is attacked by a possessed girl, and to stop her, a vampire starts licking her body which makes her take her pants off.

That’s not even counting the time he chains up his girlfriend and fucks her while she turns into a vampire monster.

 

Is this a "I think he's a misogynist" thing or a "eww cooties" thing? Because I'm honestly confused.

IMO, he has a very idealized view of women (which I just attribute to him being a bit of a nerd), but I dont think he's misogynistic in his depiction of female characters.

There are female characters who he doesn't sexualize, and the ones he does literally have sexuality built in as part of their character (Vampires, Faeries etc)

 

This feels like a bait.

He's improved as a writer over time. Yeah, he was a bit horny at times.

Gross? Nah.

 

It's also part of Dresden as a character. He gets called out for being a misogynist multiple times throughout the series and grows as a character.

 

Misogynist? Sexist definitely, but I'm not sure anyone called him a women-hater.

Anyway, the sexualization definitely became a more of issue when Butcher made Harry the Winter Knight. Before that, there were scenes, but a lot less focus on them.

 

Yes, he definitely has issues with writing women. And we could handwave it away as "Dresden's character" if the same issues with writing women weren't also present throughout Codex Alera too. And if it wasn't the same throughout all 17 books.

It's still a good series, but one of its main faults is definitely that the author has very odd ideas about women.

 

The decision to make post Winter-Knight Dresden significantly more sexualised and more aggressive towards women was bizarre and really badly thought out, I think. Deliberately plowing further in to what had already been a consistent weak point and criticised element of his writing, a total unforced error.

 

This.

I recently read the earlier books and they weren't that bad. Yes, Dresden was a little sexist but it came across as a purposeful negative character trait. I assumed he would slowly improve as he faced bad ass women throughout the series, and it looked like it was headed that way before Changes.

After Changes though, Dresden's sexism became a defining trait and I became more and more annoyed with the constant thoughts of beautiful women around him.

I absolutely hate the winter knight being more sexual because we all know Dresden would never rape any woman. There isn't any actual *conflict* in these aggressions towards women as we all know Butcher isn't going to let Dresden fall. Thus, it just feels forced and the author being a bit of a creep. It's also why I'm NOT a fan of the Lara/Harry pairing. It feels more like self-service for the author than anything else.

Needless to say I wasn't a huge fan of the latest books and I'm pretty much only following the series for *mirror mirror*.

 

There's a bit in one of the latest books, I think it's Peace Talks, where Harry Dresden sees Ivy again and immediately says that she's a woman now. Creeped me the fuck out.

 

I was always more annoyed by the "chivalry" thing than the horny quality of the writing. I like the books at all, but every time we're beat over the head with how Dresden can't turn away from a damsel in distress no matter how suspect the circumstances it's groan worthy. And it just...doesn't make sense why he's hung up on fighting women when gender means fuck all about how physically dangerous a person is in the sphere he's always lived in. And then the narrative holds this character trait out to us as if it's a virtue, an endearing part of Dresden's sense of honor and gentlemanly nature.

It's the most annoying part of the books to me, and yeah, it interacts badly with the very horny descriptions of a plurality of the female cast. And also with the thing where Bob's sex/love obsession is apparently an aspect he's taken on as a reflection of Harry--and you know what, it would be fair to point out Harry is pretty lonely considering his circumstances--but the way the books go about it invokes a sort of martyred inceldom and Harry's persona as a supreme gentleman (you might say) did not age well. With his transformation as the Winter Knight we're getting into the (oh, perfectly justified, just look at the plot. The plot!) violent sexual fantasies part of the program, so that's great.

 

That part is probably less problematic to the readers because it's basically a norm when it comes to noir detectives. You start reading expecting that pretty much all their problems will start because they can't say no to a woman.

 

In the last two books, we have his self-insert (Butters) in a three-way relationship with two hot werewolf women and then the main character of the story getting propositioned for a threesome with Murphy and...I can't remember who. One of the einherjar women? Someone made the comment about how it feels like Butcher is trying to suggest how open he is to a ménage a trois himself.

The Ivy thing didn't bother me. Last we saw her she was a little girl, so Dresden being surprised at how he looked away for a bit and now she's looking like an adult is warranted.

 

I re-read the series last year for the new releases and it's definitely getting worse over time. Which is concerning since it was pretty fucked up to begin with.

 

Ivy was 12 in Small Favor. She is 18 in Peace Talks. Any dad feels weird about his little girl growing up. It will be huge process to accept his little girl as growing woman. There is nothing creepy about it. Dresden is dad now.

 

Dude the context was Dresden noticing how well she was filling out a tight little party dress.

A father figure noticing a child has grown up doesn't need to be creepy. This was so creepy that my heart sank when I read it.

 

Are you referring to this?

When did Dresden notice she is filling out a tight little party dress? Don't tell me that hips comment is the most creepy. He is 'outraged' by the development as everyone.

 

A certified neck beard having shitty views on women, and incorporating them into his books? Say it aint so.

 

Jesus Christ, this thread reads like a bunch of Mary-Beths tut tutting over tea and crumpets after church.

There's nothing wrong with being horny in your fantasy, or your life. Grow the fuck up.

Go have a gander at fantasy literature targeted at women. That's just as okay.

 

It's just as weird there too. In fact, it's probably one of the biggest problems I have with most fanfiction, is that sexualisation of people is just horrendous.

 

Here's what I've been trying to understand; we've all agreed that Dresden views women in an unrealistic manner with the fedora/milady nonsense chivalry thing and the fact that I don't think there's any woman in the series who isnt depicted as 10/10 perfection on long legs.

We have also acknowledged that Dresden/Butcher is getting increasingly fixated on exploring sex (in a very awkward and unrealistic manner) as the series progresses, with frequent mentions of a menage and restraining the mighty Winter horniness etc

But how is this "fucked up" or "gross"? At worst, it just seems like shitty and uninteresting characterization

Yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this, if that's the quote Otters was referring to.

The fact that it's not the characterization you prefer doesn't make it morally reprehensible.