So, Zeit and I have been talking, and we've come to the joint conclusion that Little Italy needs better organization and moderation. With the sudden boom of interest that has spiked here, we've gotten a bit ahead of ourselves. There's a few topics we wanted to discuss with the forum as a whole, and ask for opinions on:

1) Thread/Game Creation + Signups
2) Tags
3) Moderation + Rules/FAQs/Guides
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1) Starting off small, this is basically just an idea we had to make use of our Game and Variants thread as a place holder for all games in signups. Creating multiple signup threads at once confuses things as to how many games we should run at one time, and which mod should run them first. The idea was to use the Game/Variant thread of a thread like it to organize all of this much neater into a queue like design, where games would be greenlit to run in order.

This also begs a few questions:

1) How many games should be allowed to be run at once?
2) How big should we let the queue get before closing it to entries? If no limit, how many times can a mod appear on the queue?
3) Should games have a review period where players not playing in the game can examine setups for any glaring flaws or confusing aspects?

Basically, we're looking for ideas from you guys on this, because this would obvious effect you all the most as players and mods. Please, constructive commentary only. If you think the idea is a bad one, please explain why and/or suggest changes! The goal in this is to get this subforum running like a well oiled machine and having games put out orderly and in a controlled manner.
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2) Tags have been a bit of an issue in recent games. While they're undoubtedly a fun thing to use, they are now being used for inappropriate commentary in the form of personal attacks and comments about the state of the game while the game is running.

This is DLP and this is Mafia. Tempers flare and people say some stupid shit. Obviously there's a line, but I'm not going to be the one to lecture people on saying offensive shit. Still, Tags are anonymous, and anyone can submit them, which means we have a few issues.

1) Players outside game could be submitting these tags (which, even if you don't think they have an influence, could be influential).
2) Players are not held accountable for their tags, even if they are in game. Which means people can say things with impunity, which is dangerous in mafia and in life.
3) People can post tags when they have inside information about the setup/roles/alignments and all that jazz. Dead players, obs, etc.

So, tags about the gamestate, and tags attacking people, where do people stand on these? Zeit and I feel that tags are a fine thing to have so long as people understand when and how to use them, but again we're looking for opinions.

3) Recently, it's been hard to switch between objectively trying to do a job and being a player with a wincondition. While Zeit and I (mostly I) haven't outright used our powers to benefit ourselves, it's hard too avoid doing that when games on DLP are bound to have drama eventually.

So for the moment, Zeit and I are going to be pulling ourselves from playing or moderating games, until such a point that the subforum is setup in a place where everything is running smoothly. In addition, even once that happens, there will never be more than one of us in a game at a time to ensure the other can be called upon to lock threads, advise mods when they ask and generally overlook situations.

We feel pretty strongly about this one, and I think that you will agree, but there is probably a discussion to be had about to what degree our powers should stretch. At the moment we're just going to be looking to keep this subforum active, running smoothly, and conflicts resolved peacefully and fairly. I won't speak for Zeit here, but I personally am looking to take a much more third party advisor role in these spectacles than anything else. The end decision should go to the mod, as it is their game. If game integrity was compromised by the choices they made, then that can be dealt with after the game.

Finally, Zeit is going to be posting some threads that are essentially a general mafia guideline and FAQ type deal, with a "beginner's guide to the subforum/mafia" type deal as well. He'll explain more about this, but we're looking for comments on what else people think should definitely be in those threads.
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I apologize for the long read, obviously there's a lot to talk about and I've probably forgotten something. Please take the time to read all of the above and any comments/ideas are appreciated.

-Lexi and Zeit

 

HUH. I CAN see who added them by hovering over. Learn something new every day. That changes my stance on things slightly since people can be held accountable by mods but still not by players?

 

Idk, I feel like tag propaganda/war is a key part of DLP Mafia.

 

I agree with this - I want a first come, first serve system, where the next one up on the queue can post signups once approved by the "Mafia Mods".

One at a time until the DLP community grows.

For my site, the queue is always open, and people just submit setups through there. Maybe try that?

I'd like mods to appear once until the game they're running is finished.

Open setups can be reviewed by the community. Closed setups should probably be reviewed by you, or someone offsite that is good at reviewing. (I can review stuff but I like playing here, and I like the community)

I feel like tags are fine for commenting on the gamestate but it's not okay to attack other people. Since you can look at who made tags, maybe disable tagging privileges for people who abuse them?

I wrote up a draft of the "Beginner's Guide to Mafia" in the mafia group, that I'm interested in comments about. It's not complete by any stretch of the mind (needs definitions and stuff) but I'd like comments on it.

------

Something I'm also interested in is a general mafia discussion thread, for talking about mafia theory and stuff like that not relating to GiP (game in progress). I'm also interested in seeing how we can improve and grow as a community, though that's obviously much further down the line.

 

Just saying, I don't see a problem with tags that play off the events in-game. It was great fun during Survivor: Redemption and I haven't seen any real harm in it from Survivor: Graveyard.

The only tags I've thrown out there that could be construed as done in poor taste was for Riley's latest Dresden game(Lexi/Titus... etc, not going to repeat the full tags here) and I'll admit that they probably crossed a line. I thought it was funny given their sniping at each other so much in the final days and didn't pause to consider anything else, so for that I apologize.

Beyond that I don't really have much of an opinion on how the forum is run, so please don't restrict tag-editing.

 

These are my personal cents. They should not reflect my official opinion as a moderator or represent Lexicat's views in any way:

1) How many games should be allowed to be run at once?
One mafia game, and one Survivor game. If we get RPGs in this forum, then one RPG at a time. Multiple mafia games will penalise the quality of posts, especially if the same group of people are playing.

2) How big should we let the queue get before closing it to entries? If no limit, how many times can a mod appear on the queue?
Right now, I'm operating under the assumption that the queue can get as long as possible. As a moderator, I've had that modus operandi and will continue to let the queue be open & free, until advised otherwise. My main reasoning is that a hands-off system works well. Who are we to say "no" to somebody?

3) Should games have a review period where players not playing in the game can examine setups for any glaring flaws or confusing aspects?
Experienced hosts and players get a pass from me, but if a retarded set-up comes up, we might have a problem. However, the Mafia Game Design Discussion group has worked well for designing games. Also, Lexi and I are happy to look over any games before they are posted as threads, since we have experience as hosts.

Generally, my rule of thumb is that your rule-set and set-up should be reviewed by somebody before you post it. Whether it's me, Lexi, Kai, or anybody else in the community, that's your decision. Nevertheless, somebody should review it and look over it before you post.

 

1 game at a time, unless we ever get to the point where we have enough players to run multiple games with only minimal overlap in the playerlist. At the moment if we ran 2 games side by side the players in both would be mostly the same and that means one of the games will probably suffer as a result.

I don't see any point in limiting it, if someone really wants to mod a lot of games I'm happy to let them.

I think the way it works at the moment where the ruleset is posted about when signups start is good, it lets us comment and ask for changes to the ruleset and works for reviewing it. For closed setup games, someone should review it before the game starts.

I don't think tagging is too big a problem, if someone thinks that a tag crosses the line they should just message the mods and get them to remove it.


3) I really don't think this is necessary, there's been a total of one time in 3ish years that mod powers have ever been an issue and I don't think something similar is likely to happen again.

 

Someone who came from another forum that is strictly Mafia/Scumhunt type games. They only post in the Little Italy sub. Same with a few others really.

 

:|

Tbh the tag thing is mostly about Survivor jokes, in mafia games they're never too serious/relevant mostly references to past games. If they are used viciously or for mod gaming I support removing them, but I don't see most tag jokes as a big deal.

 

Tags in Survivor are fine. They add to the experience and don't really compromise the game state. In Mafia, however, they're more of a pain in the ass, since they're sometimes a form of communication during the Night that's not technically sanctioned. Moreover, dead players can use them to communicate certain tropes or notions, which exacerbates the issue of meta-gaming. Lexi and I won't even comment on the more personal tags: those are denigrating, and we won't deign to talk about them.

Also, our FAQs/Guideline thread has been created. Getting Started: Beginners Guide.

 

I'm with Zeit on tags. It pissed me off that someone used my game thread to mount a personal attack on another member.

However, what about game end tags? I rather find them funny when the game is concluded, to see what some of the tags are.

 

I agree with most of what I've seen here: One at a time is more than enough, specially since we struggled to fill a 16-player game for a few days.
More than one means at least half the players are splitting their attention between two games (and real life), which means sloppy gameplay.
Let's see if we grow first. I keep noticing new people all the time, so we are growing already.

I say we should limit it to 4-6 games before you close the queue until at least half have run its course.
I'm not sure how many mods we even have on the site, so I don't know if limiting them is a realistic goal, but if we're trying to ensure everyone gets a chance to, then we could just add a once-per-queue rule (as in, you can only mod 1 time out of 6).

Don't new set-ups already get reviewed before being launched? I thought that's what Prophy did with his current setting. Took about 2 days.

I think Sesc's point about mods being able to know who posted what and to delete it pretty much solves this issue. Mods already enforce the rules and make sure things go well and everyone behaves, so this just seems to go par with the course.

I never saw the tags insulting other people, though I know they happened. I'm sorry that happened...however, I do think the bile is in the strict minority. I like the tags. It's like watching the 'audience' comment on how we're doing, or just get a quick look on the game. I don't think it's gotten to the point where anyone needs to set their foot down on anything. Though I do take it that ika's been doing most of the tagging, based on Sesc's out-of-nowhere question.

That seems fair, a lot of people (me included) had a huge problem with that bit on Dresden, and it's good diplomacy on your part to address it this way.
So neither of you are going to be playing at all? That actually could be problematic as it loses us two strong players that post a lot, which we don't have that many of. XD
To be perfectly honest, like I said, it's great that you're trying to compromise with us and make everything fair, but not playing/modding at all might doesn't feel necessary, since as far as I know it only happened once.

Anyway, hope this helps somewhat.

 

1) im just gonna kinda go with consensus of 1 i could potentially see 2 (if your going a short game compiled of 5-7ish players every now and then) where they run on opposing cycles if you do something like that.[/quote]

example:

Game A is in day phase, game B will be in night phase and vice versa
this would only be if someone has 2 small games (i could prob dig up a few, 7-players if someone wanted to do an occasional dual game on the que)

2) mods/host should be limited to 1-2 games at a time on que. However, they can submit 2 games back to back so they can host one and then go right to another. Have it that they can have one actively on que and one backed up.

The back-up one can be swaped out or would go on que once the game they hosted is over. That way we have a good portion going on at a time.

Also I think first time hosters (here), should have maybe a "shortcut" on the list? Where they get to be bumped up the que a few spots if there are too many people on the list to host?

3) Depends on setup, I would leave it kinda to host discression. If its an open game (warewolf for example) it needs nothing really done or answered.

If its custom made (open/semi-open), it could have a glance-though but public at least. If they want to disclose something private that would be host discretion.

If its closed setup, the game should be viewed at unless the host specifically request that it remains hidden. If a host wants that though it should be disclosed and be considered a "bastardized" setup due to the high amounts of unknowns to everyone but host.

Tags are humors, they are entertaining, and i like putting a funny tag every now and then. If it becomes a problem, mods have the authority to take care of it as they see fit.

1) i agree some tags could be "influential" so I think it is up to host to state if tag posting is ok or not. If a host doesn't put any rules against tag posting, then it should be fair game to pot some funny tags. If a outside people put something that's "influential" its for the mod/host to decide.

2) this kinda goes back to 1, host should state the rules on tags. If a host explication says "no tags" it means no tags. If host says "tags are ok" then tags are just that, tags and can be used. It should be an implied rule that using takes to deliberately to give influence should be barred but if a player sees something that influences them, it falls to host fault. The impurity/attack tags are obvious no-gos and are mod decided. If someone thinks a tag might influence/should be removed they should speak with a mod+host about it.

3) again, thats where host need to setup the restrictions and work with a mod on it. I' just kinda rehashing same stuff now but if mod says "humorous tags are ok" then its up to host to decide what is the fine line between humors/influence, If a player has concerns it should be addressed privately. If a mod has a concern about a tag that's attacking, they have a right to take it down w/o warning and should address the player. If a mod (non-player) sees something that could be influence, they should leave it to host and not interfere.

Now there is one thing i disagree about this, both of you just going "we will not play"

I haven't played much with you guys and would like to. I think its kinda unfair to do such thing like that. I did observe the action that happened and do think it was a bias act. So a good compromise could be that both mods can not be in the same game until things get sorted/have more mods. There should always be one mod as observer/not playing as of now. This way if there needs to be a mod intervening on something with host. That mod will have the unbiased of player aspect and more of observer/mod aspect. This could also allow host to have a mod to talk to about some player actions/decisions and allow mod to step in when needed.

If a player has a disagreement with a host-based decision they should contact mod+host and request a formal lock/pause to discuss it. I know some host have mechanics at times that allows extensions on certain things so that could be a compromise at times.

Also I would like to touch on a something else with que/setups.

At what point would you consider something "bastardized"? I gave a nice example already but I do think there needs to be a line there because there are a lot of different ways for something to be considered "bastardized" and me personally, feel like should also be discussed because I do love a nice bastardized game every now and then.

Another thing to possibly bring up, feedback/criticism. There has been a lot of "your way is super annoying to me" type things directed at people post game and caused some heat at times. I do like discussion of different play styles and what can be annoying and complaints but I do think that is something that could be kinda discussed/smoothed out. I know there is a difference when "attacking" someone in game (and post) about playstlye vs the player themselves. My kinda 2-cents about something like that is that if you hate the playstle, that's you. If you hate how they act, that's you. Hate the playstlye not the player. A player should not change just because you hate it or it frustrates you. I do think they could try to address it in different manners/clarify. But there should be a line drawn to where it no longer attacking playstle and player themselves.

 

RPGs run a lot, lot longer than Mafia and are generally a lot less time intensive, so it's pretty pointless to try and lump them both in together. Plus, different RPGs appeal to different people.

 

Could I get permission from the mafia mods to post something like this?