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LOTR Lore Advice for my story

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by soczab, Dec 5, 2020.

  1. soczab

    soczab Groundskeeper

    Feb 1, 2016
    High Score:
    I'm wondering if some LOTR fans wanted to give me some feedback on a premise for a fanfic ive been tinkering with (I may try to post it later). I know im being kind of pedantic, but I tend to be obsessive on the details of the books i like. And it probably hurts that while ive read the silmarillian and LOTR many times ive not read the other books published by Tolkien's son.

    I kind of got inspired by steelbadger's Shadow of Angmar. Not his specific premise, but it just sort of fired up my LOTR engines and my love for that world. And for crossovers.

    So, I randomly started writing a bunch of scenes (for my amusement) of LOTR characters in the ASOIAF world.

    And from there, I somehow started plotting out a whole story.

    The premise was essentially Glorfindel, Legolas, Gimili, and elderly Sam end up in Westeros sometime after the books. Originally, the idea/first chapter I wrote was one of the last boats to Valinor gets caught up in a storm... cause deliberately left open ended... and ends up outside KL shortly before the Hand's tourney. I'm a stickler for 'detail' though. And so as I started writing the story seriously as opposed for my own amusement... the obvious problem is that while you could chronologically stick Legolas, Gimli, and Glorfindel on that boat together it doesn't work for Sam. He was likely long dead by the time those folks left.

    So much as i like the symbolism of it, I figured i had to either cut Sam from the story or scrap the boat to valinor is mis-directed bit.

    Looking at the chronology, from what we know, the only time I can see you making an argument of all those characters being on a boat somehow together, would be when Sam rides to Gondor around FA 21. And I figure maybe I edit and devise some reason Gimli/Legolas/Sam take a boat back north at least part way.

    I don't know, I think you lose some of the symbolism (and plot significance) with that as opposed to the trip to valinor.

    but I guess i'm looking for someone obsessive with LOTR to give feedback on a few things:

    1) Based on whatever Legolas/Gimli were doing, are any of these ideas even feasible chronologically?

    2) Alternatively, based on whatever Legolas and Gimli were doing... is it at all feasible they might leave earlier for Valinor with Sam? Again my having only the vague sense of what those two were up to post LOTR hurts me (dont know if we're given any details in some of the other books published by tolkier jr.). But from a story perspective if it can be at all reasonable that they instead leave *before* Strider bites the dust... going on the ship when sam does... that certainly helps me for *my* story.

    3) Any other ideas for the 'start up' that I may be overlooking? Some way I can get this gang 'together' post book series? I'd actually prefer that Sam be 'older' anyway to be honest. Since most of what ive written will have to be redone since he wont be so elderly with this new start.

    Or I suppose failing that I can just write Sam out entirely. but I do hate to do that. OR I suppose I could go "to heck with perfect accuracy, LOTR characters in Westeros is silly to begin with... im sticking legolas and gimli on the boat with Sam,... because I said so. The world changed and thats the point of divergence."
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  2. valrie

    valrie Fourth Year

    Jan 1, 2018
    I can't claim to be an expert here or know where I would look for primary sources but I did some google research.

    Gimli seems to move to Helm's Deep with a bunch of dwarves and later goes to Valinor with Legolas. It doesn't say when exactly he moves but I would expect that to be much earlier than the journey to Valinor. So it could easily still be when Sam is fairly young.

    Legolas moves to Ithilien with some Elves. He leaves after Aragorn dies.

    It is mentioned that they travel to Helm's Deep and then through Fangorn together. But I don't see how that could be the story start.

    To be honest, if I were you I would just make something up to start the story. There is very little information on this from Tolkien afaik and almost no one really knows what Tolkien decided about this because it was never written into a real novel. Easiest would be if you simply let Aragorn die in combat much earlier and let them leave for Valinor when Sam is still alive. Alternatively, they could have travelled to Rivendell for some occasion and then wanted to visit Aragorn and go there by boat. With occasions it could be that some friend of Legolas gets married or has a kid and he travels north with Gimli for that. Then they decide to visit Aragorn and pick up Sam on the way. I doubt anyone is going to be mad about that.

    I also randomly came across this. Apparently Turin Turambar kills Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath, which is absolutely wild in my opinion but a pretty good ending to one of the sadest stories of the LotR world. Doesn't have much to do with your idea but I thought it was pretty cool.
  3. Alistair

    Alistair Fourth Year

    Oct 28, 2014
    If you'd like Sam to be alive a little longer, another route might be to tie this into Galadriels gifts.

    In the book, Sam recieves some earth from her orchard and a mallorn tree seed.

    Perhaps, having returned to the Shire, Sam chose to use the earth in his garden and planted the seed there as opposed to some random meadow as I think he did in the book. Spending the rest of his days living in, and eating from the fuits of the garden could (if you rely on Tolkein's reliance on the conceptual weight of 'Elven magics' and gifts freely given, plus a bit of hand waving) have gifted him with unusually long life.

    Perhaps this is the reason for him choosing to have left? Having seen all his friends age and die, his wife having passed, blah, blah, off the the undying lands he goes with the last members of the Fellowship, circa FO 121.

    It's not 'canon' for sure, but could be an interesting plot device and also reconcile Sam being on the boat as an old hobbit, without being totally decrepit.

    Good point of divergence too.