Noted. I still can't see it being him. If it is him then I have no idea what he is doing or what his plan is.

Does he care about winning the game as scum? If so, then his play this game does not match that.

 

He does, sure, but it doesn't override his desire to have fun and play like himself. I've never seen anything override that, to be honest. I didn't pay super close attention to the last game on here, where fluff was scum for the first time in a while. He tried harder in that game than he has before, and actually cased people, but I think he'd be aware that we'd find that suspicious this game. I'll look through that game and get back to you. (It's WoW Mafia, if you're interested in looking at it yourself.)
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I also don't think it's fair to say Newcomb and Vaimes were playing d1 like they knew they would be fine. Vaimes was aligning with Newcomb a fair bit, which is what I'm assuming you're using as evidence, but I think he has a preference against bussing if he can get away with it. I can site a pretty recent game where he was scum with Jan in late game and in a good spot, but refused to bus Jan and went for the win with him alive. I don't think he's up for /defending/ partners exactly, but I don't think him deciding not to dunk one is evidence of him feeling confident in a third partner.

 

Yeah. I've already read everything he posted this game several times, but I have zero meta knowledge. Thing is, meta is weak and often misleading, it makes you think you know a person and even people you know insanely well can surprise you mainly because they know you too and can play against you. Whatever scum fluff does would be designed to go against his meta. Usually people are aware of their own meta and can play against it.

It is only useful in my opinion if it tells me something more fundamental about how he would go about winning, that he would not think to change on a game to game basis. Of more weight to me is that I am playing this game, not some other game. In this game, he gives no shits about winning as mafia and isn't making any moves to make that outcome more likely.

It would be a very dedicated plan to let town collapse on itself while attempting to win no town credits at any point, thus never escaping the poe for any reason.

 

I have to ask, how do you think scum!fluff could escape the poe at this point, besides doing what he is doing?

 

I actually think he wanted to control the CFD, that's more what I was looking at. Someone said something about it was just a joke, but one of the two mentioned the CFD three times. It was like he was planning end of day during the middle of the day, and was going to lynch whoever he wanted at end of day because he was feeling like a total boss, and didn't give a shit about being suspected.

Basically, they got overconfident and then when Jari claimed, it happened with too much time left on the clock for them to be able to convincingly bus worth any credit at all, so they tried to not bus and get the watcher, and then failed to do that as well.

But I don't know that fluff fits into that. More likely to me is that Fable would be able to safely move off of the person in question since the vote had no reasoning behind it. I mentioned yesterday that they said the reason for their vote was RNG like three times, as if to make absolutely sure everyone knew they had zero faith in the vote.

That's where I think they thought they were in control and they were not.

Then Fable is not getting credit from me for that vote for that reason. It looked like they wanted bussing credit, but also wanted to get the hell off of that lynch at any time they deemed opportune.

Which is why I want Fable dead today.
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That would depend on what would fool you people, since my opinion of him is not what his game is riding on.

I don't know that much. Only you guys could tell me.
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The repeated mention of the cfd and the repeated mention of the rng vote both stuck out in my mind yesterday, but nothing was as scummy as Jan's game by far, so that is the lead I followed.
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As a time saver can someone link me to a post where all the dead have flipped or all the alignments are revealed in the WoW game?

Or just tell me who fluff's partners were.
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nvm, found it. It was lulz and fluff. Now I can read.

 

I think you're misunderstanding Von's confidence at eod. He has a dark sense of humor, and tends to joke about things that worry him, like a cfd onto Newcomb. Note that he didn't lead the cfd onto Jari and was actually one of the last people to switch over, only after he saw town moving that way. I don't agree that there was too little time after Jari's claim to bus by the way (I think that's what you were trying to say), but rather Von made a mistake in hoping that town would lynch Jari for him. He hoped for that because he saw both Jan and myself pushing for Jari's lynch after the claim. (We did this, by the way, because we have a meta of almost always fake claiming before being lynched as scum, in order to cause a mislynch, our a town!pr or, ideally, both. Watcher is one of the best claims to fake, as a tracker or cop may be confused and decide not to counterclaim and if there is a counterclaim it outs the most dangerous town role.) In fact, you can see where Von quoted a post I made against Jari, questioning whether he was really scum, but not moving his vote, which was a scumslip on his part.

Wrt to fluff, I don't know a better way for him to possibly stay out the poe in this game than what he is doing now. That is my point. If he was trying and seemed to be caring, as you note he isn't, he'd probably be promptly lynched for it after his last game.

Fluff's partner in the WoW game was lulz.
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Did Zenzao's read of Jan have an influence on yours when you replaced in?

 

Hard unvote tell strikes again in the WoW game. Scums hard unvote way more often than townies do.

Generally you're trying to solve a game, which is why you move your vote. You have someone else to pressure even if you have a reason to unvote, or you leave your vote there since you could have guessed right without reason, even if it was a random vote.

Scums unvote and don't re-vote a lot because they want to have a defensible reason to vote someone and haven't done the work needed to justify it because they aren't actually solving, and they don't want to have to defend a naked vote.
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No, I don't let other people's reads influence my own. Jan suspicions were all mine and they all built up from the moment I entered the game and started reading everyone's posts. Just, one after the other were made without a lick of sense or a solving process that I recognized.

I couldn't put myself into those shoes and follow his process at all, so it looked fake to me.

 

Vote count:

Fable (1): Ghouliani,

Not voting (6): Miner, Fable, Fluff, Gemma, Fonti, dC,

With 7 alive it takes 6 to hard lynch.

 

On page 3 of WoW I see that fluff is making something of a mafia move by asking his partner a question, and then they interact, but his partner never does answer his question, and then when the town talks about other things, they both disappear into the night. So he is not being particularly showy about distancing from his partner yet, but it's still a bad process because he doesn't care about answers to his questions, and his partner ignored it, so his partner isn't being especially conscious about treating fluff like he is a townie whose questions are on the same level of threat as everyone else.

Why it could be a mafia move is because Fluff doesn't have many posts but a large number of those are directed at his partner on day one of that game so far. Distancing is the effect he was going for.
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So even with this small amount of posts, there is a plan of action that wins.

Can you find anything comparable to that in this game?

I'm not done looking, but this game is only 8 pages long so. I also know he busses his partner hard later, so the whole plan was to distance then bus at whatever point wins him the most town points.

It's a simple straightforward uncomplicated plan that works a lot. So those are obvious mafia moves.

Here, he is basically a log. A likeable log but still a log. He's not making mafia moves. That is an inherent part of his scum game, he wouldn't have dropped it considering what percentage of his posts in that game are dedicated to making mafia moves.

So it is a fundamental tell for him, which won't work in the future because now he knows about it, but if he were scum here, then he is making mafia moves in his posts. I don't see it but I will look again.

 

This is the sort of thing that strikes me as Von trying to break up a personal fight between two town.
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His mafia moves were pointed out to him the discord after the game, though. He would have already been aware.
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Fable, do you remember why you were townreading Von at this time?

 

He could be making different ones here, or still doing the same ones since they worked.

But, he probably would not fundamentally switch his entire strategy to a passive one that doesn't nudge town opinion in any direction.

That's too big a change for me to buy.

 

Also, what happened here?

 

Actually I was hoping not to bus him, but then he basically went afk and I had no choice.

 

Why? And that's not an accurate assessment of his play. He has tried nudging town a bit, like when he went after Gemma at the beginning of Day 2.
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I think Newcomb put the second sentence in there because he was genuinely worried Fable would take offense after his earlier blow-up. He wouldn't have that concern if he were talking to a partner.

 

Need a worksheet.

Spoiler

Add my thoughts to this a chunk at a time, but I don't want to lose this multiquote and have to redo it.

 

It's worth pointing out that you attacked Jan over this, but you out yourself in the lynch order in mych the same way the moment he was gone.

 

Alright. I didn't get there yet, because now I am on this game again.
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No, pretty much everyone else alive except for fable did that.

Your opinion of me as a whole is the lynch order. I have no control over that. I just don't have a third suspect because I have four townies plus myself. 5 townies and 2 suspects is a win if those townies are correct.
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Me being in the POE makes it all the more important I can clear fluff in a convincing manner, in fact. So I better get cracking.

 

My issue isn't you putting yourself in the lynch order, it's you not understanding why Jan was doing it and how his willingness to do so wasn't defeatist and mafia indicative.

 

Jan suspected half the game, and was looking to destroy the poe while pretending he was accepting it, from my perspective. Then he flipped town, so it is just how he plays. I don't know that because I don't know Jan.

 

I can't see how that could have been a reasonable interpretation of Jan's posts. He outlined a clear lynch order with him in it. That order changed from the beginning to the end of the Day, but had a clear progression. This is a point I'm going to hold against you pretty much regardless of what you say about it, so your efforts will be better spent clearing fluff and addressing my points about Fable.