It seems like the very concept of this is vilified on this forum. Why? Obviously it is part of fanon and not canon. That alone isn't enough to make it hated. It is clear that some wizards are simply stronger than others and it seems like an elegant solution to the problem.

Can I get a little insight as to why it is viewed so negatively?

 

I'm afraid that's not clear at all, actually.

Even if it was, saying "Lol magic core" isn't exactly a profound way of confronting the issue. It's lazy.

 

The problem is that there are easy counterexamples to magical cores, and if you try to address them it stops being elegant. Take, for example, Neville's surge in skill during OotP, or Crabbe's use of Fiendfyre, or how nobody ever seems to get "magically exhausted" in canon. Personally, I find that it's far more elegant to view differences in magical ability the same way we view differences in academic ability: skill depends on a combination of effort and intelligence, and while having a better calculator/wand may allow you to accomplish tasks faster/stronger, there is no substitution for true understanding.

 

If there is a better explanation I'd love to see it. I find Butcher's Dresden Files uses the concept of magical cores the same way I read about it in fan fiction on the HP side. Some people just naturally have more power than others. Skill remains a factor but some just got more juice.

 

It's a solution, but hardly an "elegant" one. It's the "Dragonball Z" answer to the problem.

 

Didn't Neville get a new wand during that time? Also if there is an internal mechanism to magical strength it could also work like height does. Some folks have growth spurts. Not to mention if you have all the power in the world and not the confidence/skill to use it I doubt you'll get very far.

Goyle is unskilled but uses a powerful spell. Doesn't that back the idea that magical strength and magical skill are different?

You make an excellent point about no magical exhaustion in canon but canon is full of holes in the hows and whys of the world. Something I think JKR doesn't mind at all since she seems to have created the work with a bias towards the whimsical as opposed to the mechanical.

 

Neville gets his new wand after his dad's snaps at the ministry, which happens after his "spurt" starts. His growth is most likely caused by increased motivation (from Bellatrix escaping Azkaban) and additional resources (through the DA). While growth spurts are a thing, and the comparison is interesting, remember that Neville was virtually a squib in his first year - this is slightly more severe than normal. Lastly, I agree that confidence is important, but that's still more an argument against cores, as confidence doesn't make you taller. The more that magical ability is inborn, the less Neville's confidence could affect it.

Not quite. You can teach a high school student, even one with very little mathematical ability, how to find a Laplace transformation without even teaching them calculus by just handing them a table. However, much like Crabbe and Fiendfyre, that student won't have a clue when or why to use it, and will very likely kill themselves in the process.

...My math classes are probably different than yours.

If you can point out a good hole in the mechanics, I'm sure the DLP community will take it into consideration. I'm kind of a new poster here myself, but it doesn't seem like they're openly monsters or anything.

 

It's viewed negatively largely because of years of bad fanfiction where magical cores are used as cheap drama (you've used too much power, Harry! You can't use magic for the next three weeks!), cheap power ups/lazy solutions (Harry can apparate at Hogwarts because he's just that awesome), and similar issues.

Whether it's a theory with any truth to it is debatable, but most members of the board don't have the patience to have the debate for the 100th time.

 

Methinks you and we shall have a hard time coming to an agreement of this issue, Sau. You're trying to justify shoehorning in this idea with what I belief is a whiff of desperation.

There are differences in the canon faults(wizard populations come to mind, playstation mention too) and an issue of this magnitude which holds no credence. If wizards were born with magical cores Rowling would have made some note of this in regards to all of the wand lore(IE the wand saps from the core when casting, don't cast x many spells of y difficulty in z period or else you'll run dry) and during the education at Hogwarts at one point or another.

Also, with all of the information that Rowling has approved to come forward from Pottermore, magical cores should have turned up if she thought to add them in after-the-fact in all the years that opportunity has been available. She has not once alluded to the magical core to my knowledge.

In essence, Wizards are not Wands. They do not function by a core, but by magic, period. By and large magic requires zero excessive input beyond a compatible wand and wizard, and the knowledge of what to say and how to swing. Certain acts of magic require more intent(Avada Kedavra, Crucio, Imperio) to pull off - you have to mean it, you have to want to inflict the pain and suffering of or the dominance over another being when casting those three. But that's all. No mention of pushing more mystical energy in, of tapping a supposed core, just more emotion.

 

Neville can be taken in multiple ways but power is just power unless it is used. You could have someone who has amazing potential to do something but never had the opportunity to put it into practice. If everyone has the same potential to use magical power than why is Voldemort a threat? He busts open Hogwarts wards like an egg with a wand that wasn't fully tied with him. Could ANY wizard do this? I find it highly unlikely myself.

Goyle I view firmly in favor of the magical core (or battery pack as some mod edited my title lol). He was strong enough to cast the spell. Now skilled enough to control. Other wizards may not be able to cast the spell at all.

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Like I said I think JKR deliberately did not go into huge detail on the mechanics of the world because she fancies the whimsical. Honestly it is probably why the book was such a hit among children everywhere. The little tykes like their silly fun.

The mechanic of the core and weather it can be 'drained' or 'bound' or other things done to it in fan fiction is clearly beyond the original source material. However what isn't unclear is that some wizards are more powerful than others by dint of their inborn magical ability than their skill. Harry Potter throws how many dementors back in book 3? Can any wizard do that?

If we admit that absence of skill difference some wizards are more powerful than others (and I don't buy Harry being uber skilled at the age of 14 to many degrees greater than fully grown wizards) then what explains it? Magical cores with differing sizes is one possible explanation.

 

C'mon. Are you serious? Let's go down the checklist;

• His history as Tom Riddle is known to a very select few, meaning to many he just turned up one day in the late 60s to early 70s out of the blue with no background behind him.
• He began killing and leaving behind his personal mark over the houses of the victims wide and far, and the Ministry for all its supposed competence could do nothing to prevent this; you could leave for work in the morning and return home to find the Dark Mark floating in the sky overhead and your family slaughtered. He was a public terror.
• He cursed a position at Hogwarts that endured for decades, ensuring that any who took the position of Defense against the Dark Arts suffered some bleak fate by year's end.
• He was defeated under mysterious circumstances that no one but Albus Dumbledore could begin to grasp, but even after his 'death' the wizarding world by and large remained terrified to speak his self-given name of Lord Voldemort.
• He returned with practically no warning after he was supposedly killed some fourteen years earlier and began his old regime again. Death Eater sightings, Dementors flocking to his cause and abandoning the only wizarding prison available, werewolves and giants siding with him, all of the creatures that wizarding society feared unified under his banner.
• Regardless of the fact that he did not strike the blow, it was his Death Eaters who killed 'The Only Man He Ever Feared', Albus Dumbledore, the last bastion against Voldemort's cause. Shortly after this the Ministry of Magic fell to Voldemort, Hogwarts was taken over by his Death Eaters, and those within Wizarding Britain began being persecuted openly over blood status.
• And, he was deeply steeped in the Dark Arts. He knew of magic or invented magic that few alive in that day were aware of, coupled with his disposition toward disregarding the lives of those around him and a willingness and great mastery over the usage of the Unforgivable Curses on a regular basis.

In short, Voldemort was feared and considered a threat because he became an immortal, psychopathic mass murderer who delighted in torturing and inflicting misery on those who opposed his world view. He had access to the three deadliest curses for which the Ministry decreed a single usage of would result in a life-time sentence in Azkaban and a mastery over their use which he employed often. He used his knowledge of magic to further his command over magic. With more knowledge of a given subject one can generally apply their reasoning to achieve unexpected outcomes; Dumbledore himself was much the same in his own youth according to the OWL examiners.


If you want a real world comparison, look at talent. Look at what the geniuses throughout history have done compared to the average joe. Some are born with the drive, the intuition, the inherent will to rise above the masses. They apply themselves to become the best that they can be. Hard work can only make up the difference so far for a hard-worker against one who has talent backing them from the onset.

He spit out the incantation without having the mental fortitude to keep it under control. FYI it's Crabbe, not Goyle. He wanted them to suffer and went with something he thought would do that job and them some and per the wikia page,

Highlighted for importance. Pick up incantation, suffuse with enough vitriol, cast. No requirement of magical power shoved in.

Also, I point out Mad-eye Moody's lesson on Avada Kedavra in Year 4. He told the entire class that they could pull out their wands and cast the killing curse at him and he wouldn't get a nose bleed from it; this isn't because they are incapable of manifesting the magical oomph because of a core being too weak, it's because they lack the refined hatred.

 

Well, how about intent? Harry casts the Cruciatus on Bellatrix in book 5, but it doesn't really hold, because he doesn't cast it with the right emotions or mindset. Or look at the Patronus - a really happy memory will make the spell work better than a kind of happy one. Harry isn't necessarily more powerful, but he's definitely got a lot more willpower and emotion than your average wizard (look at him vs the Imperius), so it stands to reason that he could squeeze a bit more out of certain spells.

 

Zenzao - I feel bad that you listed all of that stuff that is a bit of a tangent. I should have been more clear.

Why is Voldemort a personal threat in combat that can only be dealt with by Harry? If magical ability doesn't have varying degrees of strength and it is only based on skill than Voldemort would be dealt with quite easily in any sort of battle.

Though you bring up an interesting point about the curse he cast on the Defense Against the Dark Arts position. Why was this curse so effective? If it was not tied to personal power than is it merely an act of skill? Shouldn't Dumbeldore be easily able to undo it with his vast knowledge? And if Voldemort can do it and he isn't more powerful than the average Joe... well damn there should be quite a few curses going around that are unstoppable.

A curse cast by Voldemort is more dangerous than a curse cast by Lockhart. Even if they both cast the spell fully correctly I have a hard time seeing the outcome of the spell to be the same.

I'm just looking at things as logically as I can. If there are no differences in power Voldemort would not be able to take on three to one odds against other skilled practitioners like he did in the final battle. If there are no differences in power Harry would not be able to send a huge number of dementors scattering.

And if there are differences in power not explained by skill than it has some inborn function. Magical cores could explain it.

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So folks have various levels of inborn 'willpower' and those with more 'willpower' can cast spells more effectively than others? Replace 'willpower' with 'magical core' and the sentence still mostly makes sense.

How did Harry gain more willpower than others? Were there specific actions he took to improve his willpower? Or does he just naturally have more willpower than others? I feel like we're just interchanging words at this point on the discussion on if people have varying degrees of inborn magical power.

 

Willpower isn't a physical thing, and there is evidence that you can train it, so it's not necessarily inborn either. I guess the biggest distinction is that muggles also have willpower and emotions, but they wouldn't have magical cores.

 

Brain's are physical things.

In any event the point is that Harry is able to do things other wizards cannot. I claim that it is due to his inherent magical power that is independent of his magical skill. You are claiming it is his willpower. I'm then suggesting that 'inherent magical power' = 'willpower' in the effect they would cause. Heck your study would indicate that willpower is drained after the resistance of temptation so like a battery pack that gets drained with use...

 

The concept of 'magical cores' sucks! Its right up there with harems on my list of peeves.

Intent and understanding, these are the keys to perform magic in the HP universe. It has been stated by the characters throughout the course of seven books so one doesn't really need cores to explain why some wizards are better than others.

 

Lets see here.

I am assuming you mean the prophecy when you say this. Remember that the prophecy was simply self-fulfilling and only reason it actually mattered is since Voldemort believes in it.

Or you know, he is a lot more skilled than others?

Knowing lots of things doesn't mean that you know everything.

You fail to grasp that he is simply alot more skilled and knowledgeable than the 'average joe' and thats what matters.

Technically it shouldn't make a difference when it comes to some spells since Lockhart was apparently very skilled with Obliviate. We don't really have a spreadsheet for comparing both of them on all different spells.

Here lies the problem. Read my last paragraph then what has been said earlier by others. He is a lot more skilled, that means if you don't understand it is that he is more proficient at a spell since he has more understanding on how it works / More time spent perfecting it.

In canon we learn that classes can go over some spells for quite a few lessons, basically, we see how easier it becomes the more they practice and the more they understand of the spells they are casting.

 

Because prophecy says so. Do you doubt that Dumbledore could have killed Voldemort in the Ministry year 5 had he so desired? Only what good would that do when by that point it is confirmed that Voldemort wouldn't be gone from the world?

Pit a karate master against a beginning student. Who wins? The one with more experience, knowledge, and understanding of the techniques involved.

Now're you're being deliberately obtuse. I keep telling you that this isn't a matter of power, it's experience, inborn ability to understand magic. We don't know all that Voldemort did with the Dark Arts to enhance his personal knowledge and development of magic, but he was deeply involved throughout his entire life, and he already had the talent as a child that he nurtured as soon as he could.

It isn't a matter of saying a countercurse and being rid of the issue on the Dark Arts position. Its old magic and/or unique to Voldemort himself. He may have tethered it into his own enduring soul, in which case there is nothing for Dumbledore to do but study and try to find an end to that tether.

Lockhart has no talent but for one charm. Voldemort had immense talent from the beginning and a drive to push himself for more.

No, you're looking for any excuse to shoehorn in a poor concept, and I am not up to par on offering sufficient counter arguments to deny your faulty reasoning.

Again, this isn't power. Stop latching onto that same angle.

Paging Taure. Please fill the gap that I am so woefully inadequate to cover on this subject.

 

There is an upward limit to skill at anything. Be it Chess, Boxing, Jousting or what not. Put the best boxer in the world vs. three low tier professional boxers at the same time and he'd get demolished. In addition the better you get at something the less of an increase you get with each tier of skill.

How is skill achieved? Is it based on mental understanding of what a spell does? Is it based on how much dexterity the individual has in manipulating a wand? These don't explain the sheer epic level threat that Voldemort represents. The only possible thing that makes sense is that his spells are inherently more powerful than other individuals.

Consider than the Auror training. The best of the best. The highly elite, given three years of training after 7 years of Hogwarts. And yes Harry is better than they are in magical combat. Harry didn't extensively train during his time at Hogwarts, he taught some in Year 5 and got a bit of extra training in Year 3 but that was it. Why is he better than Death Eaters and Auror's in magical combat? A stronger magical core explains it - everything else false short.

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Actually yes I doubt Dumbledore could easily defeat Voldemort. If he could there are too many advantages to slowing him down/disabling him. Just because someone is immortal doesn't mean they can't be trapped.

We aren't talking about karate master vs. student. We are talking about folks at the epitome of their art. The differences between master fencers, master chess players, master FPS gamers is incredibly slight.

Maybe I should approach it a different way. Why would you assume all wizards have the same 'oomph' to their spells? We know spells have varying degrees of strength. (Patronus example). Why assume it is based on skill or emotion and not power?

We simply don't know enough about the curse on the Defense Against the Dark Arts position. Varying degrees of strength based on one's magical core would be an internally consistent explanation. Could there be other ones? Absolutely.

'Lockhart has no talent except...' Define magical talent. Magic isn't hard - we see school kids learning 'ridiculously advanced' (Lupin's words) magic in between classes taught by another student. A better explanation is that Lockhart has a tiny core and is limited as to what he can do but the mechanics of the Obliviate spell allow him to get around his crippling limitations.

Again not saying canon has to work with magical cores but it makes so many things fall into place neatly. That is why I think it is an elegant solution. It sounds like there have been some really bad fanfics that have used it though and that may be where the hostility stems from.

 

I should really stop replying and just wait for Taure to show up. Still...

Lockhart is a poor example. Canon states that he was a reasonably talented student, but had no interest in things that he wasn't already good at, so he made no progress overall. In this, he's a testament to the positive effects of working hard and studying upon magical ability - or, I suppose, the negative effects of not doing either of those things.

This is ridiculous. Magical skill is achieved the same way any other academic skill is achieved - remember here that the story takes place at a school. Is it based on mental understanding of the concepts or how fast you can twirl a pen? Clearly, these don't explain the sheer epic level threat that Einstein represents.

Magic, like any academic field, has giants who tower in it because they push the boundaries of what can be done. These are people like Dumbledore and Voldemort and, you know, Einstein. Only, Einstein finished inventing his theories of relativity, and proceeded to share them with the rest of the physicists. Imagine the gap in knowledge if he'd kept all that to himself, as often happens in the magical world.

So no, the gap in ability between Voldemort and most others is not actually inexplicable.

I feel like you're intentionally misunderstanding me here. I'm not saying that there's a mystical phenomenon I choose to call willpower that affects all spells in the same way. I'm saying that the strength and type of the emotions involved in the casting - which may be indirectly influenced by willpower - affect some spells.

This is why different people are better suited to different branches of magic. Bellatrix is a cruel person, so she can get more strength out of Dark magic, which requires malicious intent. Harry isn't, but he is a very loving person, so he can cast a particularly powerful Patronus through memories of his loved ones. But Harry can't cast Unforgivables as easily as a Death Eater, and many Death Eaters can't cast the Patronus at all, because they're spells suited to different types of people. Willpower can influence focus, yes, and thereby have an indirect effect on many spells, but it's always going to be more important with resisting the Imperius than with magically opening a can of beans.

So I pose a question to you: If you believe that Harry is stronger than the Death Eaters - which is itself debatable, but relatively unimportant - then why are they better at some spells than him? His "larger magical core" should make him always cast everything better, right?