One thing I was thinking about the other day and perhaps examining is how many DLP members still consistently read/write fanfiction? Not saying we should shift away from our roots, but perhaps it might be good to do more to highlight original fiction?

 

Put it in the next pan-DLP survey. I wouldn't imagine our original numbers are higher than our fan numbers.

 

This is just my perspective as someone who was gone for years and then came back, but I'd guess not very many. At least not Harry Potter fanfiction. The other fandom threads seem to get a lot more response than any HP fics up for review. Likewise, the various politics/real life/multimedia threads seem to have much more traffic than fanfic threads.

This is just the natural progression of things, I think, as people get older and acquire different interests. No idea how to 'fix it,' or even if it needs to be fixed.

Edit: just talking about Arthellion's question. I'd love to see more engagement on WbA.

 

I like both of the BTT/Discord Crowd ideas for lending a hand to WbA. It definitely needs help. But each approach has some potential pitfalls to navigate.

For option (a) – calling it the ‘Inquisitorial Squad’ is funny, but it might actually feel like one to the person being reviewed. If your fic has received no attention for weeks and all of a sudden it receives a dozen critical reviews, it might feel like your village just got burned down by a roving band of marauders.

Not because concrit is bad, or because DLP is too mean, but because the people doing the reviewing have no real investment in the story. The approach is a clinical one, where technical elements are dissected and discussed, but no one is ultimately in it for the long haul. If this idea is implemented, special care has to be taken that the squad doesn’t engage in hit and runs, essentially pillaging a new fic each week and never returning to its smoldering ruins.

If that happens, it will be a deterrent to attracting new writers to DLP. Potential writers need to feel like they’re part of a team who is also invested in their story, or the whole process becomes joyless.

For option (b) – It's a good idea, but what’s the reward for actually acquiring trophies as a reviewer? Just a little number by your icon?

I think there’s potentially a third option here that combines the best aspects of both these ideas: turn part of WbA into Alpha Fight Club.

For those who don’t know, Alpha Fight Club was a forum for fanfic writers founded by jbern and friends back in the day. Lots of people cut their teeth there, including nonjon, Master Slytherin, BajaB, Perspicacity, and Voice of the Nephilim. Quite a few DLPers were members, though most have left the fandom.

Each writer had their own subforum at AFC, where they posted plot bunnies, outlines, and chapters of current fics. The writer controlled who had access to each forum, so there weren’t people doing anonymous hit and runs or shit posting. You had to apply to each writer to have access to their forum, and had to prove that you could contribute to the discussion. Most of the people there were also writers who participated in each other’s groups, but there were some trustworthy reviewers who did nothing but provide feedback.

The site is basically dead now, but the system worked well and could be implemented here. We could basically have two sections of WbA. One would remain exactly as it is, allowing anyone who’s a member to post something for feedback. The other section would be a series of subforums dedicated to the works of particular writers.

If you want access to a writer’s subforum, you ask the writer, who asks a mod to allow it. This would give people a sense of ownership and exclusivity in the WbA, and it would encourage reviewers to get off their asses and contribute. Otherwise they don’t get to see Joe’s latest stuff.

You could also tie this into the proposed rewards system, where unknown reviewers would have to collect a certain amount of trophy points—proving their ability to provide useful feedback in ‘For Review’ or library threads—in order to gain access to the ‘elite’ section of WbA.

If it works, it could create a sense of community and teamwork. It might start attracting other writers to DLP, because they would know there is an established community who will provide feedback while also giving them some privacy and control over who sees their stuff. It won’t feel so anonymous.

I’d vote against tying any of this into discord, because if people start using the forum functions there, it just takes traffic away from DLP. And discord chat is not something that everyone has the time or interest to engage with.

There are obviously problems with this idea too, mainly because DLP is a much larger site than AFC ever was. Who decides which writer gets a personal subforum? What sort of criteria do you use? What does it mean to be an ‘established author’ at DLP? There is the potential for drama and resentment if someone doesn’t get their own section. Likewise, it can feel personal if you are denied access to a particular writer’s section.

You also don’t want a sea of subforums for people to navigate. It can look like a mess. And from a convenience standpoint, it’s a pain in the ass to ask for access when all you want to do is see if you might like someone’s work.

So there are real problems with it, but it’s an idea worth considering and maybe refining.

If DLP wants to be known as the vanguard for good fanfiction writing, something like this might attract the right people in multiple fandoms. New writers or those who rarely post could use the ‘old’ WbA until they have proven they are serious about getting better and being part of things here.

It would also put a stop to a lot of the plagiarism, and decrease the number of people who use WbA as their personal library but contribute nothing to the writers.

The real problem with implementing any plan is the general lack of enthusiasm for fanfiction right now. If that enthusiasm were there, we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion. I have no idea how to address that.

 

@darklordmike I think the main problem is that if we go the AFC route then we’re not really helping those that the whole thing was trying to be useful for.

Taure, Joe, Otters or whomever who would benefit from their own exclusive sub forum already have the popularity to have their work looked at.

The reason we started discussing this on discord is that there are stories that are consistently updated that aren’t seeing any love. That’s a failure on our part. At least in my mind, WBA is one of the two big things that’s supposed to bring us together and that the forum turns around.

The competition proves that people can make insightful, short (if needed) useful critiques. How do we get us all to do that for non-competition stories by non big-name authors? I think that’s the real question.

I think there’s certainly something to be said for not being an absolute bunch of thundercunts but... anyone who was participating should know that. The rules of the site and the guidance for feedback still apply.

If ten people descend on a story, who would otherwise not have descended, then you’ve got odds that one or more may decide to keep up with it that aren’t 0. That’s my two cents, anyway.

 

Could we not repropose the Concept by Author forum for this?

The whole point of that forum was to get feedback for ideas and stories before publishing them to the public. It's great in theory, but in reality, very few people use it and even less review or give feedback. @Halt has been one of the only people actually providing me feedback when I posted my story and outside of @Taure, we are like the only two who are even using it.

Perhaps we could turn that forum into the headquarters of The Inquisitorial Squad. Those who use the forum must also help review other stories? Or at least have the squad focused on the stories posted there?

This allows a private place for writers to get some true feedback as often times WBA just becomes a place to read stories.

Regardless if my idea has merit or not, I think we need to be looking at how to improve CbA as well.

 

...There's a Concept by Author forum?

 

No. What makes you think that?

 

Ah, I misread "repropose" as "repurpose" and was left very confused.

 

Good. There is no CbA in Dee Ell Pee.

 

lol, Best of luck, Professor. May the blood flow freely from your quill and the scars from your detentions be permanent.

And what you're doing is an admirable thing, in the sense that you're putting effort into something that you wouldn't normally read for someone else's benefit. Lots of stories need that basic feedback on speech tags, paragraph breaks, etc., and WbA is tailor-made for those kinds of conversations.

The problem is that most authors want more than technical advice or to be told what they're doing wrong by someone they don't know. The thing that was so great about AFC was that you could just toss out ideas or outlines or spoilers, ask for advice about how to implement an idea, talk about meta-level issues like character arcs, etc. I'm not talking about having group hugs. The criticism was pretty rigorous. But you knew you were getting a response from people who were actually reading your stories and interested in keeping up with them. By comparison, WbA feedback feels like getting a checkup at the doctor's office, and seeing a new doctor each time.

WbA isn't really made for those kinds of discussions. It's too big and too anonymous. Even among the popular writers, most of the posts are fellative (I might have just invented that) praise or beta-level feedback on typos or awkward phrases. I'm not suggesting that's anyone's fault. It isn't. I'm just saying that there is a demand for a different kind of feedback in the fandom, the current WbA isn't made for it, and DLP might be able to meet that demand with all the smart folks here.

Presumably Taure, Joe, Otters, et al are having those higher-level planning conversations elsewhere, in smaller discord or google groups not unlike AFC. So why not try to expand WbA's role to allow them to do everything in one place? Easier said than done, I know, but I'm just thinking out loud here.

Yeah, I see what you're saying and I agree. But presuming that the new folks stick around and get better/become popular, they're eventually going to want their own little space for an inner circle too. It's just hard to see how to accomplish that with WbA as it is, but I may have misunderstood its purpose. Is it meant as a service to the fanfiction community at large, like a one-stop shop for writing advice, or a way for DLP's own authors to fine tune their work before it gets posted? Because I mostly assumed it was the latter.

 

@darklordmike it does sound a little like what you’re looking for is Lindsey’s concept by author, because I agree with you:

I think this is what WBA is for too. Help with the work that you’re producing as a group beta and feedback on the story content as it’s presented.

Certainly, and I’ve seen this before, I think if a writer were to start discussing problems with the development of their story plan and direction then it would be responded to, but it’s definitely not the mindset I go into a WbA thread with, and I think it’s something the writer has to specify or bring up. And then hopefully the engagement is there.

Nmb (peace be upon him) and the document on reviewing is really useful here, trying to get that higher level critical feedback on stylistic and then deeper level things but the problem is, even here, not many people likely feel comfortable commenting on it.

For my own part, if TIS takes off and offers a dedicated period of time to review a particular story, I’d want to treat it like I did the competitions. Where time allows, I’d want to offer things I could regurgitate from podcasts and books about writing techniques and with a TIS overthread bring those writing ideas back into it for discussion, so that people can have a sounding board about that harder criticism to deliver and everyone comes away happy, feeling like they’re getting something out of it.