tn has seemed very towny since taking over for koalas (who you also called towny iirc) imo. haven't read too closely but I liked comparing notes with koalas, idk.

 

That's kinda my point though. Like if that Rubicon post was a bus I think it would have been less naked. Like who reads a buddy's post and just goes "that guy is mafia" without explaining why?

 

"This guy followed me onto Newcomb, so I think he's town!"

Come on, dLGN.

---------- Post automerged at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

Fair point.

 

You think Tn has seemed /towny/?

 

Dude, are you literally just townreading the people who agree with you? Is that you thought I was town earlier but are freaking out now?

 

this would be the silliest bus of all time. the team would have to be completely within the generally accepted POE, which I guess isn't unreasonable but... ugh, like.. jan threw multiple reasons to townread snowvon out there, he was pretty stubborn and defiant about being off-wagon on town proph, he looks ok right now and doesn't need to bus imo

---------- Post automerged at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

it was specifically how he went about comparing his notes with his predecessor, not with him latching on to newcomb. please.

 

All of this makes me happier with Fonti and dLGN actually. Like Fonti is arguing with him about me, he's arguing with her about Jan, I disagree with both of them about Kai. It all seems very v/v/v and I don't get the sense anyone is arguing in bad faith.

 

To be even more clear about this, I liked post 737 (https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=886371&postcount=737)
and found delphine's response in 739 above to almost be a tacit agreement with that view while also suggesting that he not do it because it's borderline rule breaking?

 

That's nice and all, but actually coming to a consensus towncircle would be a lot better.

 

also, delphine's thoughts on rubicon and why she thinks both newcomb and tn are town would be useful right about now. but I owe it to her to respond to what she wanted from me first, so going to get on that now.

 

We have another 2 days and 16 hours, I'm in no rush to do everything now.

In fact, I'd like to request a Holiday Extension[color]

---------- Post automerged at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Holiday Extension

 

We just had a holiday break.

 

What do you think of my VCA?

Kai I think this is the Day you need to pull back the curtain.

 

I just reread all of Newcombs posts that included "Rubicon" .. fast read considering his amount of posts.

The point is .. if Rubicon is scum, then Newcomb is pretty much town. At least from my perspective.

Newcombs reads did change a bit over the time, but Rubicon was his target in every world.
One can argue that Newcomb also tried to kill a lot of scum, but the way he kept Rubicon in his reads makes them pretty much non aligned. (Rubicon is in every scum world Newcomb painted so far.

Posting all the worlds Newcomb posted that include rubicon, considering the amount of them that are more or less all of his worlds i think (i did cut the meat from the posts) :

Spoiler

From my perspective, if Rubicon is scum, Newcomb is just so unlikely to be scum with him, because he kept rubicon as scum in all his worlds, regardless of his other reads.

He had Rubicon with proph and myself.
In the proph is town world, he had rubicon/snowvon
He considered Rubicon as scum in the fonti scumworld (negative space)

Rubicon is his one constant.

On the other hand, if Rubicon flips town .. then Newcomb has 0 scum in most of his scumteams (Proph/Snowvon/myself/Rubicon being the people he pushed on for most of the time - i know i am town, 2 flipped town, rubicon being the last one), which looks really bad.

I will go so far that if one flips scum, the other one is town or the other way around. Rubicon is way more likely to be scum in the pairing.

 

I'm asking because New Years will also likely cause problems.

 

going to color code my responses so I don't have to break up that quote a bunch lol. ok here we go:

first off, very sorry to hear you are feeling ill, I hope you feel better asap!

lol at taking the responsibility to read me. i still don't know what to expect from myself in a scum forum game, especially with people who I respect as great players and know me pretty well.

I did sense that you had read a good bit / most of my games I had linked you before the game started or linked everybody in this thread. I'm kind of ashamed of the FFR game because I was a bit of an asshole (i died with reads that would have won the game fwiw, only hardcleared actual town, and we did win after my death, so that's something I guess) especially because so much of that game took place outside of the forum on slack (both in a general channel for the game as well as in PM communications). I was pretty blunt in thread and did a very significant part of my poking to get reads out of the thread, and I don't know how much of that came through, but yeah. I think I was better behaved in the 2+2 game(s) etc :^)

the towncase was legitimate. you had done several things I've seen you do as town around the times and in the proper context that you've done them before, so I felt pretty good about calling you hard town at that point. and I've said it before but I don't try to pocket people when I am mafia so even if I was scum I wouldn't come out with something that ridiculous to try to pocket someone early on d1 lol..


drunk you is super easy to read! or, at least realizing that you were drunk was super easy to read from your posts, haha. and I think it's probably towny of you to even venture within a mile of this game in that state but that's ogi/speculation that I don't expect other people to share lol... idk why you're paranoid of me. I think I've explained all of my reads/actions faaaairly well this game, aside from the couple of things you pointed out and that I hope to address to your satisfaction shortly. idk, a bit of healthy skepticism is probably a good sign, at least for me checking back on my read of you. I guess my early strong townread was a bit much but yeah, you'll know it came from town dLGN eventually and hopefully I am correct!

to be perfectly honest, at this point, I'm kind of speculating about my own thought process from the start of the game when I'm not 100% sure I can put myself back in my own state of mind at that point buuuuuut...

I think I found it more important for someone who is completely unfamiliar with me to not get too stuck on my jan townread as reason to think I am scummy from so early on and to distort how he read me and my interactions from that point forward. I mean, undoubtedly it would, regardless, but if I could correct that as best I could I think it would be helpful, if newcomb is indeed town.

that and yes, while I expected a pretty specific reaction from you, idk if it would be necessarily alignment indicative nor would it necessarily be had I not gotten such a reaction. it was just after playing that turbo with the pair who read each other and threw weak meta reasons at everybody else and didn't really consider anything otherwise until the game was lost. I thought, at the very least, you'd have an aversion to meta reads and would comment about it or at least not be willing to sheep that type of read very readily, if you were town. along the same lines, if you weren't hesitant about that type of read or sheeped it easily, I'd have probably gotten a slight scumread from you (or, it would have added to my scumlean from your opening).

i don't know if it's really a situation where if x then y, and/or if a then b. it's just more that I thought it should elicit a certain type of thought process from you if you are town and interacting with you or seeing you go through that would have looked good to me.

sure, my fonti interactions and particularly that d1 vote seems to be something that a lot of people disliked from me this game. to be quite honest, no, because she didn't do much that I could find to be readable on my first read (and still hasn't, one could argue). so I read her case, read proph's responses, read everything else, and decided that, while idk if I would have made as big an issue out of some of her points, they are things that I scumlean people for, myself, and it would be great if she were right and could basically clear herself from it. in the off chance she was wrong, I wanted to know a little bit more about what she thought about everybody else, so I waited to try and get a little more from her and others before committing to a vote. additionally, I just wasn't 100% sure about the soft vs hard lynch. I guess I didn't see lochness talk about it? but my intuition turned out to be correct, and I had no problem being the soft-lynch hammer (or close to it, idk), I just didn't want the day to end super super early.

your assessment of my play this game is spot on, which also speaks well about you this game. I was a bit embarrassed by my behaviour in the FFR game and while it may be effective, at least for my own reads, I think I made the experience pretty bad for one of the weaker players I pushed on too hard (before clearing) and kind of get the same sense that I can't push newcomb too hard this game (though not because he is a poor player but rather that he's looking for a certain kind of game environment and is kinda shutting down to people who are too confrontational). so yeah, I sheeped fonti a bit, in hopes that she indeed knows proph and others better than I do and could wind up clear for it, additionally because I know that I can defend and clear myself if need be so i'd like to see someone else do the same for themselves.

I guess that's pretty weird, yeah. idk, I was just wanting a bit more from fonti and once I got it I was ok with voting, so I did, and I guess efficiency / laziness had me do both in the same post? there's no satisfying explanation to mitigate this. it happened and it is what it is =/

LochNess has seemed kinda pure on superfical reading. kinda like a new player who isn't too pushy, isn't really stepping on toes, etc? I'm pretty sure I did something that she found weird at some point and she came across as probably honestly concerned about it, she didn't make a huge issue out of it, idk. maybe she could have pushed me a bit more? or pushed more in general? i'd have to go iso her to get specific lines I liked, or maybe I said something in my notes, but in general I was kinda sheeping the general view on her, too, because it was pretty congruent with my own cursory analysis.

i'll double check but I remember thinking "um, I guess that explanation is reasonable, though I don't know why he thinks anybody would have had the proper context or mindset to understand his intentions"

he didn't really harp on me for misunderstanding him, but he was clear in that I had. i decided I didn't want to push it harder and instead just take his word for it that my interpretation was poor.

hopefully that thought corresponds to the relevant interaction you're referring to. I can go quote and analyze them later for a more specific take but that's my memory of it.

good question. I'm resisting making a joke of it and picking my read of you or some other smartass response. ummm.

like, fonti's read of newcomb is frustrating for me. I loved their little unspoken interaction from d1 pg 1 but at the same time I've been a mess trying to decide if I gave one or both of them too much credit for it. like, in having so much of that go unsaid neither of them had to come out and give a definitive reason to call you town, nothing that would be hard to take back later.

if mafia newcomb lucked into pocketing fonti by responding well, it was by vaguely pointing out something good that only fonti was aware of at the time, and that he need not admit after she's dead and not around to defend deliphine for.

if mafia fonti pulled that off by getting newcomb to townread you for something that he had likely already noticed and was trying to get out of fonti, then we're fucked because he's cleared her for additional reasons that are pretty questionable to me (he can't think of any reason why scum fonti would push off of town proph onto town?jan, when it's quite clear that proph had claimed vanilla town and jan was not around to claim)

if they're both mafia then I'm fucked and I will lose to them and I won't even be mad.... that much.

as to her read, it's mostly boiled down to that she strongly believes his paranoia is real and that it is indicative of his town game. and his emotion has been my biggest problem with him - it just reads fake and forced to me all over the place. he is doing generally towny things but that's what good mafia do. it's how he goes about it and expressing thoughts that just doesn't sit right with me, for some reason. the latest VCA shit didn't help that much, nor did fonti getting me to back off of him, because as I said I was honestly more interested in learning more about her (which is why I found her vote on me funny if almost certainly not serious - despite her claim to the contrary).

so, validity? idk, it's meta which I heavily rely on myself, and have no problem with. it's more that I disagree about how real it reads. I can quote specifics that I thought were fake but a little point I know from memory was that I got a kick out of him toward the EOD when I was going nuts and getting all super excited about moving the lynch off proph and onto jan and he was super hesitant but eventually started posting in caps like I had been (and fonti was, too) to kind of match the mood when I still felt like he wasn't actually experiencing / sharing it himself? things like that don't make someone mafia, but if that's the reason why fonti likes him so much it's odd, because idk if his analysis has really taken any firm stances. he's just evaluated a ton of worlds / perspectives because that's towny and something to talk about, without committing, ughhh

i commit, even if I waffle about it after the fact, fkkk! XD

 

I don't have a problem with you being confrontational with me, I just want you to, if you're going to square off with me, throw me a pitch I can actually hit. Your "you're calling Rubicon obvious mafia by VCA that's a really bold stance and how is it even different from KaiDASh"?

Like. It's different because it is. Look at that big ISO Jan just posted where he picked out all the times I've called Rubicon scum this game. There were a lot of them. I don't have a problem going head to head, but it feels frustrating when I feel like I'm not being listened to. It was like you were treating that VCA post as literally the only thing I've done this game instead of it having like 150 posts backing it up and reinforcing it.

KaiDASH isn't lock clear town. I think his place on the wagon makes him slightly more town and his vague, coy, persona this game both a) reminds me of WH12 and b) seems way too wolfy to be a wolf. The VCA is a starting point. It's holding up the glass to the light and seeing if things make sense, seeing if they do match up with context and reasoning and genuine scumhunting and all that good stuff.

"Scum never lead town wagons" or "scum are always in mid-late position on wagons" aren't black and white like you're making them out to be. It's a game of probability. Scum are less likely to lead town wagons. Scum are more likely to be found in mid-late positions. If I look at a scum wagon and it's unconfirmed, town, town, town, unconfirmed, town, unconfirmed, unconfirmed, and I have a townread on the last person on the wagon, then I'm sure as shit focusing on the 2nd to last person.

Similarly, look at this wagon. This is before the Jan flashwagon happened when it seemed like this would end up being the D1 lynch:

Prophylaxis (7): Delphine (#18), Fontisian (#51), Newcomb (#126), Rubicon (#129), dLGN (#173), Koalas (#269), Snowvon (#270)

Again, it's a numbers thing. We know Proph is town and Snowvon is town, and I know I'm town. This is 7 people on D1 voting to kill Proph. The odds that all seven of them are town are virtually zero. And I say that because it's just, like, a thing. It happens, but it's very, very rare, so I choose to believe in the likely world. fonti made a good case, but the odds that no scum took advantage of it, and six town all liked it enough to vote when Proph was actually town is just like, no. It's also why I'm kind of hesitant to clear Delphine, because even though she "led" the wagon, her comments about Proph are kinda, I don't know, nibbly. She lacked the commitment that you usually see with the wagon leader.

I'm pretty sure fonti's town. I'm pretty sure you're town. So {Delphine, Ruicon, Koalas}. Being able to look at that group of 3 and say, "yep, almost certainly mafia in that group," that's a powerful focusing tool for me.

I actually did consider if fonti was pulling the whole "I'll 'test' you by asking you what you see here, and then I'll agree with you when you come up with ~something~ even though I don't really have anything myself" thing, but eh, seems kind of beneath her.

Now, that I hadn't considered. Still, though. Proph is a good player. I have a hard time seeing scum!fonti get greedy enough to go for that when they had a Proph mislynch in the bag.

I was mafia with fonti in WH5, and when we ran the play where we framed Snowvon, there were no theatrics, really. She buried Von, then argued with Proph and Waco when she needed to because they were balking. She didn't do more than she needed to, and tbh trying to speed-lynch Jan over Proph is just a ton of work for the payoff of maybe lynching a PR and drawing heat the next day because shit you lynched a PR, and also Proph is still alive? Nah.

I can't really help you with that. I tend to be pretty self-aware as either alignment, at least when it comes to managing my image / thread presence. And yes, I'm aware that saying that is not super helpful. It does have the virtue of being true, though.

The EoD1 stuff, I actually enjoyed the shit out of. It was exciting! I'm pretty sure it was objectively bad play but it was pretty fun.

 

I liked that post, newcomb. I will say, your description of scum fonti burying someone and doing no more than necessary seems eerily consistent with what she's doing this game, save for the whole proph/jan bit... lol

idk I will sleep on the game and see what people say as they return to the game and catch up.

---------- Post automerged at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:46 ----------

also I don't mean to slight what you've done to push rubicon this game. it was purely in the context of your using VCA, heavily using that today to suggest worlds, and doing the alternative interpretation with rubicon town and kaidash mafia and drawing conclusions about it that is odd to me - namely how that just looked "bad" or "wrong" to you, when idk why it looks like anything at all, nothing else considered.

 

This is a bad thing to read me off of. In WH5, we going for the win and I found Von's effort levels when there was nothing he could do stressful.

I like last minute changes. The pressure forces reactions, and easier to tell real ones from fake ones. You get into a mindset with some people and against others, everything seems clearer. I believed the way dLGN reacted to that eod was the most real and the most inline with mine, and I'm ride or die with that read.

 

Hey font do you think you have a good idea on how Jan would act in a particular situation?

because I have a thing.