When it says that Sasuke is a genius they mean in terms of talent. Talent wise Sasuke is clearly a genius. He had two weeks of training with Kakashi and still managed to match Lee's speed, learn lightning manipulation, and learn the chidori. You seem to be ignoring that Itachi stunted Sasuke's growth by killing all of his family. Itachi was getting trained by Fugaku and Shisui while Sasuke was training himself and still managed to stay ahead of the rest of his classmates. Had the Uchiha not been killed off Sasuke probably would have been a jounin at 14.

Did you even read what I said or did you actively decide to make that strawman? I said Sasuke had more powerful chakra than Itachi without the MS. He overpowered Itachi's fireball and broke out of Tsukuyomi to prove it.

You're delusional if you think that any Itachi could beat EMS Sasuke. You seem to be letting the fact that Sasuke wasn't trying to kill Kabuto fool you. What damage he did against Madara and Obito is irrelevant. It's what he showed. The strength and speed of his Susanoo and his mastery of Amaterasu would completely dominate Itachi. He'd completely overpower Itachi.

 

Claiming that Sasuke couldn't land a hit on Itachi is fucking bullshit.

In one of his coolest moments, Sasuke out-witted Itachi in a shuriken fight (supposedly one of Itachi's specialties). He pegged him with a Chidori-infused, rigged Fuuma shuriken, which did significant damage. And this was after holding his own fairly decently in a genjutsu battle. He then forced Itachi to use Amaterasu to counter a mere Goukakyuu, since Sasuke's Fireball was the superior one. And finally, he forced Itachi to use Susanoo to survive a lethal hit from Kirin.

Itachi might have been sick, but the reason he fell over dead in the end was because of the severe beating Sasuke had been handing him in their final fight. Sasuke forced Itachi to use his most powerful Mangekyou techniques just to stay alive, while he himself was restricted to a simple three-tomoe Sharingan. That to me says that Sasuke has talent in spades.

As for the nature vs. nurture thing, different people have varying opinions about this issue, and until the brain is better understood, no one can say who's right. I'll just say that nature must play a significant role, or else Darwinian evolution must be bullshit.

Finally, what the fuck are 'booksmarts' supposed to be? Sakura and Karin excel in academics, which incidentally is a major measuring stick of intelligence in the real world. Therefore they are both intelligent. Anyway, Sakura's medical ninjutsu, slug summoning, super strength, etc. are all practical skills she uses on apocalyptic battlefields against godlike enemies. But I'm sure Kaguya would have been comforted by your 'booksmart' theory right around the time Sakura falcon-punched the shit out of her.

 

I was also referring to Sasuke's talent when i said he wasn't a genius. Sasuke copying Lee's taijutsu is not a credit to Sasuke being a genius, its a credit to the Sharingan. But regardless, he could only match that speed for a very short amount of time, unlike Lee since thats Lee's base speed.

Itachi killing off his family didn't stunt Sasuke's growth. If anything it made him train more than he would have otherwise. It stunted Sasuke emotionally, but it didn't make Sasuke weaker or some bs. Also Itachi was not being trained by Fugaku. Itachi was stronger than Fugaku when he was like 5. Anything Fugaku had to teach, Itachi would have already mastered.

And no where in canon does it specify how much Itachi was "trained by Shisui". Only that Shisui was his mentor, which could mean a lot of things. Like, simply someone Itachi looked up to, and not necessarily a Master/Apprentice relationship like Jiraiya/Naruto.

And I did read what you said. You're also ignoring the fact that Itachi wanted to die by Sasuke's hands and that he was given a plot inflicted illness and was pretty much fucking blind and still couldn't be touched by Sasuke. And even after Sasuke had MS, Bee still obliterated him like 3 times over in that fight and the only reason Sasuke survived that was because plot.

You're downright smoking if you think MS Sasuke > Itachi, even when he was sick. Edo!Itachi fucking solo'd an edo tensei'd Nagato like it was nothing. This is a Nagato that wasn't constrained by his illness anymore, so its not much of a stretch to say Itachi would have had no problems dealing with Bee, whom MS Sasuke couldn't do shit against.

EMS Sasuke got stronger eye abilities but EMS doesn't make one all that much stronger imo. The main benefit to EMS is not going blind, not the boost to your eye powers. It just lets one spam them as much as their chakra allows and not worry about their eyesight.

Edit: Book smarts is just that. If you think being smart academically equals being intelligent, then you don't understand what intelligence is. And really? Saying Sakura is strong because of the falcon punch of bullshit she gave Kaguya? In the dimension when Naruto/Sasuke, the gods that they were could barely stand, but Kakashi can sprint no problem and Sakura can jump 500 feet in the air? Okay.

 

*Sigh* This guy...


In the real world, if you're good at academics, it's generally because you're smart. Yes, there's a difference between knowledge and intelligence, but you can't excel in academics if you're not intelligent, because academic results are determined by both knowledge-testing and intellect-testing. Or are you trying to tell me that the average surgeon isn't intelligent, just booksmart?

Anyway, besides being smart, Sakura has displayed that she also has practical skills, which is what I was trying to illustrate with the Kaguya example.

 

both Edo Itachi and Nagato had infinite chakra so that doesn't show what an actual fight between them would be like I mean if he could solo pein he would have done it a while ago.

Edit

Also notice how Sasuke barely used the MS against B

 

I didn't say copying his taijutsu. I said matching his speed which arguably has nothing to do with the sharingan. I suppose you can claim that he copied how Lee was channeling his chakra though. Regardless he did it and the only reason he couldn't maintain it was the lack of physical conditioning. Physical conditioning is not talent.

It certainly did stunt Sasuke's growth. Making him determined doesn't help as much if there's nobody around to train him. Note that some of Sasuke's largest jumps in skill tend to happen when he has someone to train him. This is seen with both Kakashi and Orochimaru. The ideal situation would be him killing enough Uchiha to motivate Sasuke but leaving enough to train him. The idea that Itachi was stronger than Fugaku when he was five is absurd nonsense that you're making up. Itachi probably hadn't even entered to academy at age 5 since he graduated at 7. He mastered his sharingan at 8, became a chuunin at 10, and ANBU member at 11. I think it's safe to say that Fugaku had trained Itachi and probably could have worked him over until he was at least 11. I find it amusing that you said Itachi wasn't trained by Fugaku like he came out of the womb knowing everything.

It doesn't need to be a master/apprentice relationship for Shisui to teach Itachi some things every now and then. Sparring with a sharingan user is a learning experience.

The reason I said you didn't read is because you went off on a rant that had nothing to do with my point. Kind of like you're doing now. I stated that Sasuke's chakra had more power than Itachi's in their fight and backed it up with facts. Itachi wanting to die doesn't mean he let Sasuke's fireball overpower his. Especially since he used Ameterasu as soon as it happened. It also doesn't mean he'd let him break Tsukuyomi.

I seem to recall specifically saying Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke but you like your strawman arguments. Anyway since you want to go there MS Sasuke after he recovers from his fight with Danzo beats Sick Itachi. Itachi doesn't have the stamina to hold up against Sasuke's Susanoo. EMS Sasuke beats any Itachi seen in the series. What you seem to be ignoring is that the MS Sasuke that fought Bee was inexperienced with his MS abilities. He was experimenting with his abilities against one of the strongest shinobi of the day. That's why Bee was beating him so badly. MS Sasuke progressively got stronger as the series went on and he finally mastered his MS while confronting Team 7. If he fought Bee again after that then the fight would have been much more even.

Sasuke in general is much stronger when he has the EMS. A 10 or so minute fight against Danzo could tire him out before but after gaining the EMS he could fight for hours without getting tired.

As for Nagato vs Itachi. Itachi didn't solo anything. He have lost without Naruto and Bee helping him destroy the gravity ball. That he saved them while Nagato wasn't paying attention to help and struck the finishing blow doesn't mean he soloed.

 

Just thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion. There's no denying the fact that Sasuke at his peak is better than Itachi. However that fight cannot be where you base this. As good as Sasuke was there should be no doubt that if Itachi really wanted to kill him Sasuke would be dead. No questions asked. He pushed Sasuke as hard as he did to rid him of Orochimaru's soul. The entire battle went exactly as he planned.
Itachi was probably the most badass character Kishimoto created, not 'cause he was strong, but because he was never in a situation where he wasn't in control.
I firmly believe that he could've won against any foe, no matter how much stronger they were than him.

 

No one said that Sasuke could have beaten Itachi in their fight. Just that Sasuke had some advantages.

Itachi being able to beat any foe seems like nonsense to me. Do you mean that in the sense of him having the possibility of winning or of him winning more likely than not?

 

I was talking more along the lines of possibility and no I don't think its nonsense. 'Cause let's face it if Itachi survived any longer he'd have gotten a few power-ups of his own.

 

Kishimoto favoured bullshit power ups to gradual character development. It's not like Naruto's power ups weren't full of lulz. Just because we don't see Sasuke's training on screen doesn't mean his achievements can be categorised as shitty power ups.

Even without all the ridiculous power ups, I can see Sasuke reaching his end of manga powers in his 20's. Compared to that potential, Naruto's development seems lame.

Pretty sure Naruto would have been stronger training under Kakashi compared to Jiraiya if you ignore the summons.

Sarada on the other hand is full of SHIT!!

 

Substantiate this. Why is it unreasonable for Sarada to know what she does?

 

Relying on hypothetical power ups doesn't really make sense so I'd call it nonsense if that's what you're basing things on. Hypothetical Itachi isn't Itachi.

 

Well then not much to say really. Itachi when alive was superior to Sasuke in every way. After his death... well he was dead. Anything after this is hypothetical.

 

If you can't get a girl, hit on her daughter.

As far as Sarada's skills go, nothing in the preceding chapters even indicated that she is anything but a normal academy student, even if she is a 'genius'. And suddenly she has the proficiency of a shippuen Sakura, not to metion that it requires perfect chakra cintrol , something which a half Uzumaki wouldn't possess.

 

They do seem to be trying to live NaruSaku or NaruSasu vicariously through Sarada.

 

There's no reason to believe that Uzumaki can't have perfect chakra control. On the contrary, Tsunade - a Senju with Uzumaki heritage - had perfect chakra control and invented the damn jutsu to begin with! Karin doesn't strike me as a chakra powerhouse, either. Her skills seem much better suited to someone with fine chakra control. And this is all supposing Karin is Sarada's mother, which hasn't been proved beyond all reasonable doubt just yet.

The reason Sakura couldn't use super strength until Shippuden is because she wasn't Tsunade's apprentice until the time skip. Sarada, on the other hand, is Sakura's daughter, and has obviously received lessons from her. It's the equivalent of Sasuke learning Goukakyuu no Jutsu while still in the Academy (actually, he must have been very young, since he learned it before/shortly after Itachi massacred the Uchiha).

Sarada is undoubtedly a very intelligent and talented young kunoichi, like the rest of her family, and she's had the great fortune of being trained by one of the strongest kunoichi in the world since she was a small child.

I really can't see the reason people are shocked by this. Sarada, Boruto, etc. have huge advantages over their parents' generation. Naruto was orphaned and ostracised since the day of his birth. Sasuke was traumatised and orphaned very young. Sakura was civilian-born. None of them had an easy road. Their kids, however, have the luxury of badass parents raising them. Well, I suspect Naruto slacked off in Boruto's upbringing and training, but obviously Sakura didn't.

What did you all expect? That Sarada would be at Sakura's Academy level? That wouldn't make any sense, given the facts.

 

Asuma wasn't legendary with his heritage and the war going on in his development years.

That being said, we are diverging from what this thread is meant to be.

BASHING AND MOCKING KISHIMOTO

 

Presumably, Asuma was neglected by his busy Third Hokage father. Boruto certainly seems to resent Naruto for being so occupied by his responsibilities to the village all the time.

There are things for which Kishi deserves criticism. Sarada using super strength is not one of them.